A question about the Transall C160

In article ,
"ArVa" wrote:

Let's let Gen. James L. Jones, USMC, NATO Supreme Commander, answer your
(smart and intellectually honest) question :

"France has probably the most expeditionary army [i.e., ready to
deploy to distant battlefields] in Europe. And writ large. They have
impressive military capabilities across the whole spectrum of
operations. They're good at peacekeeping; their Air Force is modern,
state of the art; their Navy is modern; their land Army I know about
because I served with them in northern Iraq 11 years ago, and I know
their generals-this is a very, very fine army ".

Note the qualifiers...

"...most expeditionary army in Europe." That's not saying much,
especially since it would take them six months to get any of that army
overseas without American help.

"Writ large" is, to say the least, a kind exaggeration.

It's a very fine army for *Europe*. It's just not that big, or capable
of doing much overseas.

He made this statement in an interview last week with Newsweek :
http://www.msnbc.com/news/972918.asp. There are other sources besides Fox
News, you know...

....and there are other Generals besides ones who grew up in France.

"Continental sensibilities" means he says nice diplomatic things about
the Europeans he has to work with on a regular basis. If he were
telling the truth, he'd be the *former* NATO Supreme Commander...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" a écrit dans le message de
om...
"...most expeditionary army in Europe." That's not saying much,
especially since it would take them six months to get any of that army
overseas without American help.

!?

...and there are other Generals besides ones who grew up in France.

Sure... But if more Americans and French knew better the other country, its
history, its culture and its political system, maybe we wouldn't experience
the current situation...

"Continental sensibilities" means he says nice diplomatic things about
the Europeans he has to work with on a regular basis.

It's a bit true but nevertheless a nice comment by an American official is
so rare these days that it had to be underlined... :-)

If he were telling the truth, he'd be the *former* NATO Supreme
Commander...

And what would be such a truth? Hmm?
By the way, as you speak of former NATO commanders, here is what says
another one of them :

"if you really want allies, you got to listen to their opinions, you've got
to take them seriously, you've got to work with their issues. Every one of
our allied leaders is an elected leader, at least in Europe. And that means
they have domestic politics and political factors at home and economic
factors at home that influence their opinions. And those have to be
respected just like we would expect them to respect us for our political
system in the United States.
If we deal with our allies on a basis of respect, if we give them the
opportunity and the evidence and the arguments and the analysis that's
needed to help shape their public opinions, then we can expect them to go
along with us." Wesley Clark.

I don't know if he has any real chance to be your next president, but the
current administration would be inspired to take one or two of his ideas in
condideration...

ArVa

ArVa wrote in message
...
"Chad Irby" a écrit dans le message de
om...
"...most expeditionary army in Europe." That's not saying much,
especially since it would take them six months to get any of that
army
overseas without American help.

!?

...and there are other Generals besides ones who grew up in France.

Sure... But if more Americans and French knew better the other
country, its
history, its culture and its political system, maybe we wouldn't
experience
the current situation...

"Continental sensibilities" means he says nice diplomatic things
about
the Europeans he has to work with on a regular basis.

It's a bit true but nevertheless a nice comment by an American
official is
so rare these days that it had to be underlined... :-)

If he were telling the truth, he'd be the *former* NATO Supreme
Commander...

And what would be such a truth? Hmm?
By the way, as you speak of former NATO commanders, here is what says
another one of them :

"if you really want allies, you got to listen to their opinions,
you've got
to take them seriously, you've got to work with their issues. Every
one of
our allied leaders is an elected leader, at least in Europe. And that
means
they have domestic politics and political factors at home and economic
factors at home that influence their opinions. And those have to be
respected just like we would expect them to respect us for our
political
system in the United States.
If we deal with our allies on a basis of respect, if we give them the
opportunity and the evidence and the arguments and the analysis that's
needed to help shape their public opinions, then we can expect them to
go
along with us." Wesley Clark.

I don't know if he has any real chance to be your next president, but
the
current administration would be inspired to take one or two of his
ideas in
condideration...

ArVa

Wesley Clarke?, now I know why you seem so out of touch. We're only
days away from his claim that Vietnamese snipers stalked him in the US
or the Republicans broke up his daughter's wedding. Which brings up
another point. Doesn't Kosovo prove the French can't cope with a
conflict larger than a soccer riot?

--

Scott
--------
"Interestingly, we started to lose this war only after the embedded
reporters pulled out. Back when we got the news directly from Iraq,
there was victory and optimism. Now that the news is filtered through
the mainstream media here in America, all we hear is death and
destruction and quagmire..." Ann Coulter
http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2003/091703.htm

"tscottme" a écrit dans le message de
...

Wesley Clarke?, now I know why you seem so out of touch.

Am I? :-) I don't think so... I'm not the one bashing the other just for the
country name his passport reads...

We're only days away from his claim that Vietnamese snipers stalked him in
the US
or the Republicans broke up his daughter's wedding.

Well, in a world where some (also presumably serious) say uranium has been
purchased to a guy who had been out of office for ten years at the presumed
date of the purchase, where some prestigious intelligence agencies xerox
some student material, etc, everything is possible you know... Seriously,
I'm not fond of the current administration but I respect the choice the
Americans have made and will respect the next chosen president, be he W.
Clark, H.Dean, G. bush or any other one. That's the important part in
Clark's statement that you probably missed : RESPECT.

Which brings up
another point. Doesn't Kosovo prove the French can't cope with a
conflict larger than a soccer riot?


Or you're playing the fool or you're badly informed...

ArVa

In article ,
"ArVa" wrote:

Well, in a world where some (also presumably serious) say uranium has been
purchased to a guy who had been out of office for ten years at the presumed
date of the purchase,

Of course, not mentioning that Iraqi trade officials *had* been in
Niger, which has one and only one export that Iraq wanted - uranium.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"ArVa" wrote:

"Chad Irby" wrote:
"...most expeditionary army in Europe." That's not saying much,
especially since it would take them six months to get any of that army
overseas without American help.

!?

The French (and for that matter, most of Europe) have very little in the
way of strategic airlift assets, and about the same amount of sealift.
They're an "expeditionary army" with no transportation. Their entire
current airlift assets (pending the new Airbus planes on order) are a
small fraction of the US. For a heavy sealift, they have to rent ships
from the commercial fleet to get anywhere.

...and there are other Generals besides ones who grew up in France.

Sure... But if more Americans and French knew better the other country, its
history, its culture and its political system, maybe we wouldn't experience
the current situation...

Well, if the French weren't trying so hard to isolate their culture
(official language, et cetera), and if the French weren't trying so hard
to establish themselves as a powerful country (despite the evidence)...

"Continental sensibilities" means he says nice diplomatic things about
the Europeans he has to work with on a regular basis.

It's a bit true but nevertheless a nice comment by an American official is
so rare these days that it had to be underlined... :-)

Rarity doesn't mean accuracy. In this case, the old saw about diplomacy
being a bunch of people lying over dinner rings true.

If he were telling the truth, he'd be the *former* NATO Supreme
Commander...

And what would be such a truth? Hmm?

That France, along with most of the European countries, can't exert much
force beyond their own borders without significant American help.

By the way, as you speak of former NATO commanders, here is what says
another one of them :

"if you really want allies, you got to listen to their opinions, you've got
to take them seriously, you've got to work with their issues. Every one of
our allied leaders is an elected leader, at least in Europe. And that means
they have domestic politics and political factors at home and economic
factors at home that influence their opinions. And those have to be
respected just like we would expect them to respect us for our political
system in the United States.
If we deal with our allies on a basis of respect, if we give them the
opportunity and the evidence and the arguments and the analysis that's
needed to help shape their public opinions, then we can expect them to go
along with us." Wesley Clark.

Funny how he doesn't mention anything about European armies having any
significant power outside of their own borders.

I don't know if he has any real chance to be your next president, but the
current administration would be inspired to take one or two of his ideas in
condideration...

Clark, if he gets the nomination, will lose. Badly. But don't worry...
some of his past statements about Iraq are already coming back to haunt
him. No chance for Wesley Clark.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

chad, in comparison with a superpower, no other power can do
much. There's no point in saying 'the French' are useless because they
can't do what the US can. Quality of a country is not judged on those
kind of arguments, I am sure you will see if you think a bit about
it. The US, and countries the world over, make do with what they have
at the time. If they can't do, they look for another solution.

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

In article ,
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote:

chad, in comparison with a superpower, no other power can do much.
There's no point in saying 'the French' are useless because they
can't do what the US can.

But there *is* a lot of use in pointing out that they *can't* do
something that someone else was claiming. Saying that they have
significant "expeditionary capability" when they certainly do not does
nothing useful except feed some egos.

Quality of a country is not judged on those kind of arguments, I am
sure you will see if you think a bit about it.

No, I judge the French on many other issues. But pretending that they
can do something they can't as a counter to those issues is just silly.

The US, and countries the world over, make do with what they have
at the time. If they can't do, they look for another solution.

Yes, they buy the stuff they need, or learn how to do without. But
claiming that they can do something necessary (exert meaningful power
overseas) when they can't (not enough transport) is delusion, pure and
simple.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Among the trash that passes for posts in this topic, where I still did not see any answers to the original question (or maybe I missed them) your posts stand out as a shining example of good postership! Deleting posters with rude language makes the newsgroup a LOT smaller

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:30:01 +0200, "ArVa" wrote:

"Chad Irby" a écrit dans le message de
. com...
"...most expeditionary army in Europe." That's not saying much,
especially since it would take them six months to get any of that army
overseas without American help.

!?

...and there are other Generals besides ones who grew up in France.

Sure... But if more Americans and French knew better the other country, its
history, its culture and its political system, maybe we wouldn't experience
the current situation...

"Continental sensibilities" means he says nice diplomatic things about
the Europeans he has to work with on a regular basis.

It's a bit true but nevertheless a nice comment by an American official is
so rare these days that it had to be underlined... :-)

If he were telling the truth, he'd be the *former* NATO Supreme
Commander...

And what would be such a truth? Hmm?
By the way, as you speak of former NATO commanders, here is what says
another one of them :

"if you really want allies, you got to listen to their opinions, you've got
to take them seriously, you've got to work with their issues. Every one of
our allied leaders is an elected leader, at least in Europe. And that means
they have domestic politics and political factors at home and economic
factors at home that influence their opinions. And those have to be
respected just like we would expect them to respect us for our political
system in the United States.
If we deal with our allies on a basis of respect, if we give them the
opportunity and the evidence and the arguments and the analysis that's
needed to help shape their public opinions, then we can expect them to go
along with us." Wesley Clark.

I don't know if he has any real chance to be your next president, but the
current administration would be inspired to take one or two of his ideas in
condideration...

ArVa

So who said we want france as an ally? They have caused us nothing but
grief. Wesley Clark has zero chance of becoming the US President,
partially because of comments like the one above.

Al Minyard