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#51
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![]() So you are correct that friction is used in tranferring torque in wooden props. They also use counterbored drive bushings to transfer the torque. I'd be willing to bet that the bushings transfer most of it, but that is only a guess. Thanks. -- Jim in NC I spent some time talking today at lunch with some friends who are structural engineers, about this issue of friction delivering torque to the prop. They said that if the strength of the attachment of the prop to the flange had been determined through experience, then eliminating the friction load path for the engine torque to be tranmitted to the prop could result in failure of the junction of the flange and prop, but that it wasn't likely. I'll bet that you structural engineer friends are not experienced with wood props, and their failure modes. It seems to be their own unique circumstance. It has been found that the props fail, not the bolts. -- Jim in NC |
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The big reason for the "drive lugs" is to remove the nuts from the airstream
in back of the prop and reduce the drag the produce. If they are the only drive mechanism, the recessed holes will quickly be beat out. If they did do the job, you could have one center bolt. Many props such as used on A-65 don't even have drive lugs but use bolts straight thru. -- Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A 46 Year Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot "Morgans" wrote in message ... So you are correct that friction is used in tranferring torque in wooden props. They also use counterbored drive bushings to transfer the torque. I'd be willing to bet that the bushings transfer most of it, but that is only a guess. Thanks. -- Jim in NC I spent some time talking today at lunch with some friends who are structural engineers, about this issue of friction delivering torque to the prop. They said that if the strength of the attachment of the prop to the flange had been determined through experience, then eliminating the friction load path for the engine torque to be tranmitted to the prop could result in failure of the junction of the flange and prop, but that it wasn't likely. I'll bet that you structural engineer friends are not experienced with wood props, and their failure modes. It seems to be their own unique circumstance. It has been found that the props fail, not the bolts. -- Jim in NC |
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On Aug 22, 4:21 pm, "Cy Galley" wrote:
The big reason for the "drive lugs" is to remove the nuts from the airstream in back of the prop and reduce the drag the produce. If they are the only drive mechanism, the recessed holes will quickly be beat out. If they did do the job, you could have one center bolt. Many props such as used on A-65 don't even have drive lugs but use bolts straight thru. -- Cy Galley - Chair, AirVenture Emergency Aircraft Repair A 46 Year Service Project of Chapter 75 EAA Safety Programs Editor - TC EAA Sport Pilot "Morgans" wrote in message ... So you are correct that friction is used in tranferring torque in wooden props. They also use counterbored drive bushings to transfer the torque. I'd be willing to bet that the bushings transfer most of it, but that is only a guess. Thanks. -- Jim in NC I spent some time talking today at lunch with some friends who are structural engineers, about this issue of friction delivering torque to the prop. They said that if the strength of the attachment of the prop to the flange had been determined through experience, then eliminating the friction load path for the engine torque to be tranmitted to the prop could result in failure of the junction of the flange and prop, but that it wasn't likely. I'll bet that you structural engineer friends are not experienced with wood props, and their failure modes. It seems to be their own unique circumstance. It has been found that the props fail, not the bolts. -- Jim in NC- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I talked some more to my structures friends. They said that wood reacts to cyclic stress in much the same manner as metal. It is also an elastic material (unless overloaded) and it also will fatigue more quickly when cycled back and forth from tension to compression than it will from repeated tension or compression alone. So the same preloading to improve the fatigue life applies to wood as it does to metal. Lower preload results in a lower fatigue life. So the "drive" lugs are really low drag lugs? I doubt it very much. I've read alot about airplanes, and this is the first I've heard on that one. The most highly stressed part on the whole airplane is the propellar attachment. Any design utilized here must take care of that issue first and foremost. The drive lugs are better than plain nuts and bolts for at least two reasons. First, counterboring the back of the wooden prop hub to allow the insertion of the lugs results in a larger diameter hole in the wood, therefore a larger bearing surface which improves the load capacity. Second, it utilizes the fact that for elastic materials, the bearing strength is usually about 3 times as much as the shear strength, and the drive lugs use the bearing strength and any friction between the crankshaft flange and the back face of the prop will test the shear strength of the wood. A crankshaft flange 6" in diameter will have a little more than 28 sq in of contact area. For a prop this size, the hub should be at least 4 in thick. with a 3/4" dia drive lug, this will give you about 18 to 20 sq in of bearing area. Given that the only place where friction will be great due to bolt tension will be close to the bolts, as the slight warping of both flange and wood, comparing the two scenarios easily shows that using the bearing strength of the wood with the drive bushings is far stronger, and much more reliable. As to some props such as C-65 cont having no drive lugs, this is not surprising on old, low powered engines. I have installed a prop on an old Cub, and one of the things that you had to be careful about, was making sure the bolts had a slight drive fit to them through the wood. This is really the same setup as as bushings, just that the bolts bear against the wood instead of the bushings. More modern designs with higher horsepower (Katana, etc) use drive bushings to make the holes larger and and a more precise fit. All higher horsepower modern props use drive bushings. There is a reason for that. It is because it is a better way of doing a very critical joint. One of the people I talked to is a Boeing Technical Fellow, the highest level an engineer can achieve there. He said that in all his years, he has only heard of one instance where friction was used to qualify a structural joint. It was for some trivial thing like an adjustment slot for a secondary structure part (like the slot for adjusting the belt tension on some alternators). I hope that homebuilders that read RAH seeking help will take Fortunat1's advice from the building manuals he quoted, and realize that thinking that you can rely on friction to hold the wing joint together may get you killed. This is even more true of propellars, where the cyclic loads are severe and constant. Regards, Bud |
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On Aug 12, 11:09 am, Fortunat1 wrote:
... I'll just have to get a good quality reamer and prepare each hole carefully. I'll see if I can get a drill bit that brings he holes a little closer to the final size. May I suggest you get more than one drill bit, for the same reason you need more than one reamer? ..What is the annealing temperature for 4130? You can drill through a bandsaw blade by spot annealing it, that is you chuck a blunt rod like a nail with the point ground off into a drill press bring that to bear on the spot to be drilled until it gets good and hot, then let it cool slowly. Now the spot is annealed and a hole can be drilled with an ordinary bit. So I wonder if re-drilling the holes will heat them to the annealing temperature? Or would it be feasible to spin a rod in the holes to heat them by friction to soften them? Or would that just work-harden the surface.... --- FF |
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On Aug 17, 2:50 am, Charles Vincent wrote:
Fortunat1 wrote: "Rich S." wrote in : "Fortunat1" wrote in message ... Well, obviously I'd protect it, but I'm not going to rely on epoxy to bear a load. If I can't get the holes 100% I'll bush them.... ...So I guess I'l just be as careful as I can cutting the holes. Just looking through Bengelis' book, I see he recommends using a twist drill to cut the holes, presumably to their final size,... I would test that theory first. Reamers may or may not give a good finish on wood. That was one of the reasons I quoted the study I did. The twist drill gave the best hole finish. Bits made for wood, high quality brad-point or forstner bits, may give you a cleaner hole than a twist drill made for metal. Cheap bits are crap-they'll burn their way through the wood. As a rule of thumb, when working wood, use tools made for woodworking. Duh! Wood expands and contracts with changes in humidity and it does so anisotropically. E.g. a flat-sawn board will have the highest expansion rate accross it's width, less through its thickness, and minimal along it's length. Quarter sawn or vertically grained wood, which is what you usually want for a spar cap, will have those first two rates reversed. What this means is that if you drill a perfectly circular hole in a piece of wood, as soon as the humidity changes it becomes an oval hole. The same is true of a wooden dowel. Wood finishes slow the rate at which wood absorbs or releases moisture to the air so as to prevent moisture gradients through the interior of the wood, which minimizes e warpage. But all wood finishes are permeable to some degree to water vapor. So don't get too crazy about making the hole perfect. I think the epoxy approach is a good idea. -- FF |
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On Aug 22, 2:55 am, "Morgans" wrote:
I'll bet that you structural engineer friends are not experienced with wood props, and their failure modes. It seems to be their own unique circumstance. It has been found that the props fail, not the bolts. -- Jim in NC Jim, I share your skepticism. As a structural engineer, I am also curious about the statement that friction is only considered when it works against you. It's not clear to me whether these were aircraft structural engineers or otherwise, so I'll have to give Bud the benefit of the doubt. However, Chris Heintz, designer of the Zenith aircraft, that has stated that the reason fatigue isn't much of a problem for the rivets in the aircraft skin is because the friction between the joined surfaces typically carries the cyclic loads from engine vibration (See "Riveted Joints", Chris Heintz, P.E.). I won't speak to use in aircraft, but in general construction friction is often considered a working part of the structure. In fact, there are many instances in steel structures where service loads are transmitted purely by static friction - moment connections, end restraints for slender columns, connections with slotted/oversized holes to facilitate assembly. Bearing/shear of the bolts is obviously checked, but day-to-day the loads in those structures are transmitted via static friction between the members. By design. AISC references these as slip-critical connections. HSFG (High Strength Friction Grip) is another term. Due to construction methods and tolerances, those connections may only have one bolt out of the whole group that is technically "bearing", maybe none. My point is that friction as a mechanism for transferring loads to a wood prop is not really all that unique or unusual as an engineering concept. To address an earlier part of the thread, however, I wouldn't count on friction for a wood-spar attach fitting. The fittings are often made from thin material. Out-of-plane bending prevents the fitting from developing much friction away from the bolt holes. And you have humidity changes constantly modifying your wood dimensions. Tried-and- true phenolic bushings, match drilled and reamed to the fittings, cost about a dollar per hole. In the plane I'm building, that is less than $50, so it was an easy choice to make. Another statement that doesn't sit well was the reasoning that a pre- tensioned bolt has better fatigue characteristics because metal fatigues less when the stress cycle is all in tension as compared to stress reversal. This is a clear misunderstanding of the factors in play. Study the S-N diagrams of these materials and you will see that increasing the mean stress decreases the fatigue life for a given stress cycle amplitude. The reason some pre-tensioned bolted connections (esp. shear) have better fatigue characteristics is because the cyclic portion of the load is transfered via friction. The bolt actually experiences a drastically reduced or eliminated cyclic stress, thereby extending it's fatigue life even though the mean stress of the bolt is much higher. Tension connections see improvement through a different mechanism, but the result is the same - reduced cyclic stress in the bolt and increased fatigue life. Matt, P.E. |
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![]() "Gunny" wrote To address an earlier part of the thread, however, I wouldn't count on friction for a wood-spar attach fitting. The fittings are often made from thin material. Out-of-plane bending prevents the fitting from developing much friction away from the bolt holes. And you have humidity changes constantly modifying your wood dimensions. Tried-and- true phenolic bushings, match drilled and reamed to the fittings, cost about a dollar per hole. In the plane I'm building, that is less than $50, so it was an easy choice to make. Oh, I've becomne a believer in that part of the tale. It does make perfect sense that the plates are not ridgid enough to develop any significant friction. There are too many conflicts with what I have read from people who's word I trust, that props are driven mainly from shear loading. I remember a few months back, that one of the guys on the group (occasionally) that works at Scaled Composite in an important capacity, threw the prop on his (vary-easy ?) There were warning signs, as I recall, that were missed before it flew off. A top Boeing engineer is not likely to have enough experience with wood props to make his word more valid than the local guy at the airport that has been flying wood props all of his life. I really don't have a dog in this fight. I'll attempt to let it lay, and let those out there with a dog in the fight make up there own minds. I could be all wet, but if I am, I have badly misunderstood some reading I have done. -- Jim in NC |
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On Aug 24, 1:38 pm, Gunny wrote:
On Aug 22, 2:55 am, "Morgans" wrote: I'll bet that you structural engineer friends are not experienced with wood props, and their failure modes. It seems to be their own unique circumstance. It has been found that the props fail, not the bolts. -- Jim in NC Jim, I share your skepticism. As a structural engineer, I am also curious about the statement that friction is only considered when it works against you. It's not clear to me whether these were aircraft structural engineers or otherwise, so I'll have to give Bud the benefit of the doubt. However, Chris Heintz, designer of the Zenith aircraft, that has stated that the reason fatigue isn't much of a problem for the rivets in the aircraft skin is because the friction between the joined surfaces typically carries the cyclic loads from engine vibration (See "Riveted Joints", Chris Heintz, P.E.). I won't speak to use in aircraft, but in general construction friction is often considered a working part of the structure. In fact, there are many instances in steel structures where service loads are transmitted purely by static friction - moment connections, end restraints for slender columns, connections with slotted/oversized holes to facilitate assembly. Bearing/shear of the bolts is obviously checked, but day-to-day the loads in those structures are transmitted via static friction between the members. By design. AISC references these as slip-critical connections. HSFG (High Strength Friction Grip) is another term. Due to construction methods and tolerances, those connections may only have one bolt out of the whole group that is technically "bearing", maybe none. My point is that friction as a mechanism for transferring loads to a wood prop is not really all that unique or unusual as an engineering concept. To address an earlier part of the thread, however, I wouldn't count on friction for a wood-spar attach fitting. The fittings are often made from thin material. Out-of-plane bending prevents the fitting from developing much friction away from the bolt holes. And you have humidity changes constantly modifying your wood dimensions. Tried-and- true phenolic bushings, match drilled and reamed to the fittings, cost about a dollar per hole. In the plane I'm building, that is less than $50, so it was an easy choice to make. Another statement that doesn't sit well was the reasoning that a pre- tensioned bolt has better fatigue characteristics because metal fatigues less when the stress cycle is all in tension as compared to stress reversal. This is a clear misunderstanding of the factors in play. Study the S-N diagrams of these materials and you will see that increasing the mean stress decreases the fatigue life for a given stress cycle amplitude. The reason some pre-tensioned bolted connections (esp. shear) have better fatigue characteristics is because the cyclic portion of the load is transfered via friction. The bolt actually experiences a drastically reduced or eliminated cyclic stress, thereby extending it's fatigue life even though the mean stress of the bolt is much higher. Tension connections see improvement through a different mechanism, but the result is the same - reduced cyclic stress in the bolt and increased fatigue life. Matt, P.E. Thanks for your comments, and before I put my comments on this thread to bed, I want to say that the OP asked a question or two that have been answered very well, and that is what this group is for. Even I have learned things about working with wood. Anyone reading this thread looking for info will find the correct way to construct a wing joint. As to whether or not the engineers I talked to were aircraft engineers, most definately they are. As to some of your comments, I need to clarify some things. If you are a civil engineer that deals with steel structures, and you have design and analysis standards that use friction to qualify structure, then that is your way to do it. I don't recall seeing a major building , bridge, etc, that wasn't either riveted or welded together, but I don't know for sure. So I will take your word for it. I stated in my first post that friction existed and carried load, but simply that for aerospace structures it is never counted on to carry load. You only consider friction when it works against you. That I know is true. In your statements about why using friction in the wood spar joint is not a good idea, I think you have begun to uncover some of the reasons why it is true. Since most airframes are thin shell material, most of these reasons apply just as well to metal as wood. As to the statement that I clearly don't understand the factors involved, you clearly do not understand what I said, the nature of preloaded bolts, or even the S-n curves themselves. Improved fatigue life due to preloading has nothing to do with friction. Friction may improve fatigue life in the real world by spreading load over a larger area, but the benefit of preloading on fatigue life is due primarily to an effect that exists even if no friction is present at all. Why you think I need it pointed out that higher stress levels result in shorter fatigue life is puzzling. Of course the higher the load you place on a structure, the fewer cycles it will survive before failure. What is hard to understand about that? What you apparently don't understand is what constitutes a load cycle, how much is the load, and what preload does to that. Preloading the bolt reduces the cyclic load that it sees, since the load in a preloaded bolt only increases about 10% until the applied load exceeds the preload. When the prop bolts are allowed to lose their preload, the full applied load becomes the amount of cyclic load that causes fatigue. This is best demonstrated by giving an example. Take two identical bolts, having a breaking strength of 5,000 lbs each, and preload one to 2000 lbs, and none to the other. If we now begin to subject both bolts to the same cyclic loading of 1500 lbs, where the applied load is increased from 0 up to 1500 and then reduced to zero again, the bolt with the 2000 lb preload will see a cyclic load of only about 150 lbs, whereas the un-preloaded bolt will see a cyclic load of 1500 lbs, and will obviously fail much sooner. Same bolts, same loads. The meaning of this is that if you keep the prop bolts properly preloaded or torqued as it is, then BOTH the bolts and the prop hub see a much smaller cyclic fatigue load than if you allow them to become loose, thereby greatly increasing the cyclic load that they see, and increasing likelyhood of failure. As for S-n curves, there are more than one type. The one relating to what I am talking about are the ones that show S vs N for different stress ratios. The stress ratio is the fraction equivalent of the maximum to minimum load. For example, something that is loaded in tension to 25000 psi, followed by being loaded in compression to 25000 psi back and forth, will have a ratio of -1.0 ( +25000 tension/ -25000 compression). Something loaded to 25000 psi tension that is reduced to 10000 psi tension and back and forth will have a stress ratio of .4 (10000 tension/ 25000 tension). The S-n curves show that the amount of cyclic load that structure loaded with a ratio of -1 will fail far sooner than one with a ratio of .4, even though the maximum stress level is the same. You can look in Mil-Hnbk-5 or elsewhere for S-n curves to verify that. The best book to explain all this is "Mechanical Engineering Design" by Joseph Edward Shigley, Professor at the University of Michigan, chapter 8, "Design of Screws, Fasteners, and Connections". It is THE most widely used text on the subject in the top engineering schools of the country, and has been for many years. Regards, Bud M.S. Aerospace Engineering |
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On Aug 24, 1:38 pm, Gunny wrote:
On Aug 22, 2:55 am, "Morgans" wrote: I'll bet that you structural engineer friends are not experienced with wood props, and their failure modes. It seems to be their own unique circumstance. It has been found that the props fail, not the bolts. -- Jim in NC Jim, I share your skepticism. As a structural engineer, I am also curious about the statement that friction is only considered when it works against you. It's not clear to me whether these were aircraft structural engineers or otherwise, so I'll have to give Bud the benefit of the doubt. However, Chris Heintz, designer of the Zenith aircraft, that has stated that the reason fatigue isn't much of a problem for the rivets in the aircraft skin is because the friction between the joined surfaces typically carries the cyclic loads from engine vibration (See "Riveted Joints", Chris Heintz, P.E.). I won't speak to use in aircraft, but in general construction friction is often considered a working part of the structure. In fact, there are many instances in steel structures where service loads are transmitted purely by static friction - moment connections, end restraints for slender columns, connections with slotted/oversized holes to facilitate assembly. Bearing/shear of the bolts is obviously checked, but day-to-day the loads in those structures are transmitted via static friction between the members. By design. AISC references these as slip-critical connections. HSFG (High Strength Friction Grip) is another term. Due to construction methods and tolerances, those connections may only have one bolt out of the whole group that is technically "bearing", maybe none. My point is that friction as a mechanism for transferring loads to a wood prop is not really all that unique or unusual as an engineering concept. To address an earlier part of the thread, however, I wouldn't count on friction for a wood-spar attach fitting. The fittings are often made from thin material. Out-of-plane bending prevents the fitting from developing much friction away from the bolt holes. And you have humidity changes constantly modifying your wood dimensions. Tried-and- true phenolic bushings, match drilled and reamed to the fittings, cost about a dollar per hole. In the plane I'm building, that is less than $50, so it was an easy choice to make. Another statement that doesn't sit well was the reasoning that a pre- tensioned bolt has better fatigue characteristics because metal fatigues less when the stress cycle is all in tension as compared to stress reversal. This is a clear misunderstanding of the factors in play. Study the S-N diagrams of these materials and you will see that increasing the mean stress decreases the fatigue life for a given stress cycle amplitude. The reason some pre-tensioned bolted connections (esp. shear) have better fatigue characteristics is because the cyclic portion of the load is transfered via friction. The bolt actually experiences a drastically reduced or eliminated cyclic stress, thereby extending it's fatigue life even though the mean stress of the bolt is much higher. Tension connections see improvement through a different mechanism, but the result is the same - reduced cyclic stress in the bolt and increased fatigue life. Matt, P.E. Thanks for your comments, and before I put my comments on this thread to bed, I want to say that the OP asked a question or two that have been answered very well, and that is what this group is for. Even I have learned things about working with wood. Anyone reading this thread looking for info will find the correct way to construct a wing joint. As to whether or not the engineers I talked to were aircraft engineers, most definately they are. As to some of your comments, I need to clarify some things. If you are a civil engineer that deals with steel structures, and you have design and analysis standards that use friction to qualify structure, then that is your way to do it. I don't recall seeing a major building , bridge, etc, that wasn't either riveted or welded together, but I don't know for sure. So I will take your word for it. I stated in my first post that friction existed and carried load, but simply that for aerospace structures it is never counted on to carry load. You only consider friction when it works against you. That I know is true. In your statements about why using friction in the wood spar joint is not a good idea, I think you have begun to uncover some of the reasons why it is true. Since most airframes are thin shell material, most of these reasons apply just as well to metal as wood. As to the statement that I clearly don't understand the factors involved, you clearly do not understand what I said, the nature of preloaded bolts, or even the S-n curves themselves. Improved fatigue life due to preloading has nothing to do with friction. Friction may improve fatigue life in the real world by spreading load over a larger area, but the benefit of preloading on fatigue life is due primarily to an effect that exists even if no friction is present at all. Why you think I need it pointed out that higher stress levels result in shorter fatigue life is puzzling. Of course the higher the load you place on a structure, the fewer cycles it will survive before failure. What is hard to understand about that? What you apparently don't understand is what constitutes a load cycle, how much is the load, and what preload does to that. Preloading the bolt reduces the cyclic load that it sees, since the load in a preloaded bolt only increases about 10% until the applied load exceeds the preload. When the prop bolts are allowed to lose their preload, the full applied load becomes the amount of cyclic load that causes fatigue. This is best demonstrated by giving an example. Take two identical bolts, having a breaking strength of 5,000 lbs each, and preload one to 2000 lbs, and none to the other. If we now begin to subject both bolts to the same cyclic loading of 1500 lbs, where the applied load is increased from 0 up to 1500 and then reduced to zero again, the bolt with the 2000 lb preload will see a cyclic load of only about 150 lbs, whereas the un-preloaded bolt will see a cyclic load of 1500 lbs, and will obviously fail much sooner. Same bolts, same loads. The meaning of this is that if you keep the prop bolts properly preloaded or torqued as it is, then BOTH the bolts and the prop hub see a much smaller cyclic fatigue load than if you allow them to become loose, thereby greatly increasing the cyclic load that they see, and increasing likelyhood of failure. As for S-n curves, there are more than one type. The one relating to what I am talking about are the ones that show S vs N for different stress ratios. The stress ratio is the fraction equivalent of the maximum to minimum load. For example, something that is loaded in tension to 25000 psi, followed by being loaded in compression to 25000 psi back and forth, will have a ratio of -1.0 ( +25000 tension/ -25000 compression). Something loaded to 25000 psi tension that is reduced to 10000 psi tension and back and forth will have a stress ratio of .4 (10000 tension/ 25000 tension). The S-n curves show that the amount of cyclic load that structure loaded with a ratio of -1 will fail far sooner than one with a ratio of .4, even though the maximum stress level is the same. You can look in Mil-Hnbk-5 or elsewhere for S-n curves to verify that. The best book to explain all this is "Mechanical Engineering Design" by Joseph Edward Shigley, Professor at the University of Michigan, chapter 8, "Design of Screws, Fasteners, and Connections". It is THE most widely used text on the subject in the top engineering schools of the country, and has been for many years. Regards, Bud M.S. Aerospace Engineering |
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![]() wrote The best book to explain all this is "Mechanical Engineering Design" by Joseph Edward Shigley, Professor at the University of Michigan, chapter 8, "Design of Screws, Fasteners, and Connections". It is THE most widely used text on the subject in the top engineering schools of the country, and has been for many years. Hell, that explains it, when I see what your source material is from! BFG -- Jim in NC Ohio State University Alum, and former 5 year marching band member. Go Bucks! |
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Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Reaming needed on aft wing attach point. | Boelkowj | Home Built | 0 | November 7th 03 01:30 AM |