Daddy! What did you do?!!!

....feeling guilty about my long O.T. post about my dog and angry cops,
and I had a couple of additional thoughts:

-You can avoid the high Sierra Estrella terrain and the class bravo at
night by flying to the Gila Bend VOR, then east until you're about
south of the PHX VOR. Then cut northeast to Stellar. Once you can
see I-10 all the way into the city you've got it made.

- There's a new East-West VFR transition route through the PHX class B
that would have served your purposes nicely, check out the most recent
TAC. Asking for it by name is more likely to get you a warm reception
from approach. The controller likely didn't want you interfering with
the big boys on downwind south of PHX runways 7/8/25/26. I fly out of
Deer Valley Airport northeast of PHX, and I've never been refused the
(other) VFR transition route North/South over Sky Harbor (although I
have been told to "stand by" for a good while back in the days when my
radio chops weren't as good).

-R

This does get me thinking-

I spend a lot of time around SFO Bravo, and have _never_ had a problem
getting Bravo clearance (hell, I've been cleared into bravo several
times without even asking, and for no real reason). I do the bayshore
freeway transition probably three or four times a week without so much
as a batted eyelash from ATC.

I've noticed that a lot of non-Bay-Area Pilots have a certain
"Airspace Phobia", that is, they will go _way_ out of their way to
avoid all controlled airspace, and essentially consider it/treat it as
though it was a TFR. For Example, I flew up to Portland a few
weekends ago, and decided to give a local friend an aerial tour of the
city. Before taking off, I got talking with a local pilot, who made
sure to 'warn' me "Watch out! its really tight in there between the
hills (With 1400 foot transmission towers) and the river!, you'll have
to go really slow and make a very tight turn to get back out of there
and avoid the controlled airspace!"

If you look at PDX on the seattle chart you can see what he's talking
about. Downtown is located on a little flat land between a river and
a hill with a string of 1500 foot broadcast towers, all under a 2300
foot Charlie floor. The space between the river (Charlie to the
floor) and the towers is a mile or two at MOST... frankly, reminds me
of the former east river corridor, low with no room to move.

I politely thanked him for his advice, took off, promptly called up
norcal, and asked for Class Charlie Clearance. It took all of 30
seconds, and I was given free reign to tour the city as I saw fit, at
a _safe_ altitude, no low slow turns, no stress from towers, just a
nice, easy flight. The whole 'be careful, go slow' advice seemed...
well, almost silly and misguided, if not dangerous. Why was calling
up approach and getting into two-way radio communication not the first/
only option?

Hearing your story does make me wonder though, I always just assumed
that my comfort in controlled airspace was merely a result of being
'brought up' (primary training) at a class Charlie field (OAK) under a
Bravo Shelf, and that the people who were skittish of controlled
airspace just lacked the practice/comfort with ATC. I wonder though
how much of that impression also comes from the fact that on the whole
I've always found the norcal guys to be so polite, friendly and
accommodating. Is that unusual? Are some Controlled airspaces more
intimidating than others?

I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

On Aug 24, 4:50 pm, EridanMan wrote:


Hearing your story does make me wonder though, I always just assumed
that my comfort in controlled airspace was merely a result of being
'brought up' (primary training) at a class Charlie field (OAK) under a
Bravo Shelf, and that the people who were skittish of controlled
airspace just lacked the practice/comfort with ATC. I wonder though
how much of that impression also comes from the fact that on the whole
I've always found the norcal guys to be so polite, friendly and
accommodating. Is that unusual? Are some Controlled airspaces more
intimidating than others?


I don't think liveatc doesn't have it anymore, but you need to hear
DTW when they're reversing their runways g. (Extreme hyperbole
follows) It seems like they don't give a bravo clearance if there is a
wisp of a cloud in the area g

EridanMan wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I haven't flown repeatedly in enough different class B to correlate
attitude to a particular location, but I have flown VFR in a light
single across the country and back twice and flown in or near class B
in at least Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
Philadelphia, and Memphis. On my initial call, I usually try to give
an approach controller an opportunity to call back when he has a break
in the action by saying something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR
with request". I've had responses all the way from "Grumman 12345
squawk VFR, remain VFR, remain clear of class bravo airspace good day"
to the usual "Grumman 12345 say request" to "Grumman 12345 RADAR
contact 30 east of XYZ level 8500, XYZ altimeter 29.92, squawk 4567,
cleared into class bravo airspace, let me know when you want to
descend".

-R

Rob wrote in
ps.com:

EridanMan wrote:
I guess I'm just wondering if there is any regular and consistent
"personality" differences between Bravo Approach regions throughout
the country, and if my comfort in Bravo is partly because I'm used to
a particular control area that just happens to be very 'nice'?

I haven't flown repeatedly in enough different class B to correlate
attitude to a particular location, but I have flown VFR in a light
single across the country and back twice and flown in or near class B
in at least Phoenix, Las Vegas, Chicago, Cleveland, Pittsburgh,
Philadelphia, and Memphis. On my initial call, I usually try to give
an approach controller an opportunity to call back when he has a break
in the action by saying something like "Approach, Grumman 12345, VFR
with request". I've had responses all the way from "Grumman 12345
squawk VFR, remain VFR, remain clear of class bravo airspace good day"
to the usual "Grumman 12345 say request" to "Grumman 12345 RADAR
contact 30 east of XYZ level 8500, XYZ altimeter 29.92, squawk 4567,
cleared into class bravo airspace, let me know when you want to
descend".

-R


The most interesting response I had was going into LAS many years ago,
shortly after the air space became alphabet soup. I was over Hoover Dam
and the frequency stated on ATIS was non-stop with air tour traffic.
Looking at the TAC, there was a diffeent frequency listed for that area, so
I tried it. It appeared quiet, so I broadcast "Las Vegas Approach, Archer
12345 over Hoover Damn squawking VFR request". The response, much to my
surprise, was "Archer 12345 squawk 1234 clear to enter the Las Vegas Class
Bravo say request."

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

Wow, ok, I think this might almost be worth an entirely new thread
but...

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

Generally I would take such advice with a grain of salt, if it weren't
for the large variety of (in my opinion) very skilled, experienced,
and professional pilots who had all provided the _EXACT_ same advice:

(and from now on, I'm paraphrasing)

They all say the same thing... "With request" is akin to "asking for
advice", I.E. "I'm not sure if I need X service or not, so I'm going
to take your airtime and ask you if your willing to give it to me...
But its not that important".

That's not their job, their job is to keep everything flowing
smoothly, not tell you whether or not you should take X or Y route...
You are the PIC, you hold the flight plan, you decide where your plane
is going. Your job is simply to inform them of your plan as clearly
and professionally as possible, and they will inform you if
circumstances require you to deviate from it. Nothing more, nothing
less.

/Paraphrase

I'll be the first to admit I'm 160 hour pilot... a rookie at best
(neophyte more like it)... But this advice comes from an ATP, the
owner of a local Aircraft Dealership, and my Instructor - none of whom
have ever met eachother, all of whom are in the 4 and 5 figures of
flight time, and the explanation given was always the same.

And, it kinda makes sense...

IMHO at least.

EridanMan wrote:

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

I seem to recall reading a Don Brown column on Avweb some time ago where he encouraged the "with
request" on initial call up. He said this helps the controller to realize that this is someone new that he
hasn't been talking to, rather than having to scan his scope and try to determine if this is a tail number
that he should be recognizing. I've had a few occasions where the controller will come back with a
squawk code immediately, and then ask for the request. So it gives them a heads up without taking a lot
of air time on initial call up.

Mike

"Mike Adams" wrote in message
...
EridanMan wrote:

"With Request".

I have heard repeatedly, from multiple instructors and fellow pilots,
that this is a major pet-peeve of ATC, and unless they are in a good
mood, almost guarantees that they will simply dismiss you as a "Timid
weekend flyer" (Not my words, please don't kill the messenger!!)

I seem to recall reading a Don Brown column on Avweb some time ago where
he encouraged the "with
request" on initial call up. He said this helps the controller to realize
that this is someone new that he
hasn't been talking to, rather than having to scan his scope and try to
determine if this is a tail number
that he should be recognizing. I've had a few occasions where the
controller will come back with a
squawk code immediately, and then ask for the request. So it gives them a
heads up without taking a lot
of air time on initial call up.



Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you don't
"request to make a request". Just make the request on the initial callup.
(I quickly found the one below, but I remember him siging every time he
wrote that someone said something like: "Atlanta Center, Cessna one two
three for five, request.")

I would think that around here, it would be much much faster to say (oh,
yeah, and say it fast and pay attention!):

Detroit approach, Cessna 12345 at Salem, request bravo transtion to Grosse
Isle
Cessna 12345, Detroit Approach, unable, there's a cloud in the sky [Ok,
exageration again....follow the bloody flyways around the horn and hope you
don't get hit by a freigher under the shelf g]


http://www.avweb.com/news/sayagain/190337-1.html

quote
I've tried numerous times before, and I'm going to try to make this point
again: If you want my attention and you don't want to hear me say, "Say
again," then use my name. That would be "Atlanta Center."

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request."

I hear this exact transmission at least 25 times a day. Now tell me, is this
guy IFR or VFR? What does he want? He is literally making a request two make
a request. It's a waste of time. If you're going to make a request, then
make a request. Even if it's something out of the ordinary. Condense it down
to one or two words.

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request routing change."

If you think the routing change will be too complicated for a controller two
get "on the fly" -- the first time you say it -- you've now got the
controller's attention and he is prepared to write down your routing
request.

If you're just requesting direct to a fix you've already filed, you're
wasting time. We already know everybody wants to go direct. If you can't
stop yourself from asking, then at least do it in one transmission.

"Atlanta Center, Cessna one two three for five, request direct Spartanburg."

/quote

--
Doug Semler, MCPD
a.a. #705, BAAWA. EAC Guardian of the Horn of the IPU (pbuhh).
The answer is 42; DNRC o-
Gur Hfrarg unf orpbzr fb shyy bs penc gurfr qnlf, abbar rira
erpbtavmrf fvzcyr guvatf yvxr ebg13 nalzber. Fnq, vfa'g vg?

"Doug Semler" wrote:

Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you
don't "request to make a request". Just make the request on the
initial callup.

OK, fair enough. I browsed through his archives and can't find what I was recalling. Too bad he's retired, I
always enjoyed his columns. He does seem to prefer "Atlanta Center, N12345 request VFR advisories"
as an initial call up. The point I was trying to make is to distinguish between a brand new contact and
someone already in the system that he should recognize. Also, on a busy frequency, it's definitely better
to give a short initial "wake-up" call rather than all the details of your request.

Mike

"Doug Semler" wrote:

Huh, my memory may be off, but I seem to remember him saying that you don't
"request to make a request".

Right. Controllers hate it when you make them play 20 Questions.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM