Audio recording of RAF Lancaster under nightfighter attack

Hi Keith

I'd like to know why the skipper called the Bomb Aimer a Bombaradier?

Cheers...Chris

"av8r" wrote in message
...
Hi Keith

I'd like to know why the skipper called the Bomb Aimer a Bombaradier?

Cheers...Chris


Who knows, maybe he was a Canadian ?

The term bomb aimer and air bomber were both current in the RAF
but I believe bombardier was used by the RCAF and Americanisms
abounded in slang usage even in 1943.

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.

Keith

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:50:36 +0100, "Keith Willshaw"
wrote:

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.


Yes, the accents are a little too 'high spotties' in 'elexindra pillice'


greg


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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

Who knows, maybe he was a Canadian ?

Sorry, Keith, this seems unlikely from a Canadian perspectivefor two
reasons: U.S. use of the term "bombardier" was not widely known in Canada
until films and radio plays started to be made about the U.S. air
campaign in Europe, and the Canadian desire to guard its cultural
distinctions even then -- the RCAF would have taken on RAF terminology as
part of doctrine, and use of correct terminology would have been insisted
upon in training after which it sticks.

The term bomb aimer and air bomber were both current in the RAF
but I believe bombardier was used by the RCAF and Americanisms
abounded in slang usage even in 1943.

One of the best Canadian memoires of bombing ops over Europe is Murray
Peden's _A Thousand Shall Fall_. He consistently uses "bomb aimer" in the
book; I could not find "bombardier" as I rescanned it last night. Mind
you, he's only one. However, I know some former 6 Group and other aircrew
from my membership in the Legion and from elsewhere; they get *very*
shirty if you use "bombardier" rather than "bomb aimer". "Bombardier" was
already in use in the RCA as a rank (and likely had been in use in
similar contexts since the formation of the Loyal Company of Artillery at
Saint John in 1783 or so) .

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.

I subscribe to the re-enactment hypothesis too, that way the BBC man and
the aircrew would have been able to say he was really there to record the
sortie and that they had really said those things. The only anomalous
thing seems to be the use of "bombardier".
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

Andrew Chaplin wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message

snip

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.

I subscribe to the re-enactment hypothesis too, that way the BBC man and
the aircrew would have been able to say he was really there to record the
sortie and that they had really said those things. The only anomalous
thing seems to be the use of "bombardier".

Well, that, the lack of use of first names for the crew members other than
the pilot ("skipper" is correct), and the lack of profanity. Of course, a
crew that knew they were being recorded might well have tried to sound more
'professional'; use of names instead of job titles was officially frowned
upon, but almost universally practiced by the crews. I'd be willing to bet,
though, that the original language was a hell of a lot more salty, especially
when reacting to or talking about the fighter. I lean towards the cleaned-up
reconstruction view.

Guy

Guy Alcala wrote:

Andrew Chaplin wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message

snip

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.

I subscribe to the re-enactment hypothesis too, that way the BBC man and
the aircrew would have been able to say he was really there to record the
sortie and that they had really said those things. The only anomalous
thing seems to be the use of "bombardier".

Well, that, the lack of use of first names for the crew members other than
the pilot ("skipper" is correct), and the lack of profanity. Of course, a
crew that knew they were being recorded might well have tried to sound more
'professional'; use of names instead of job titles was officially frowned
upon, but almost universally practiced by the crews. I'd be willing to bet,
though, that the original language was a hell of a lot more salty, especially
when reacting to or talking about the fighter. I lean towards the cleaned-up
reconstruction view.

Guy

Come ON you guys...how in hell did they get all the engine noise
out?...NOBODY talks in a low conversational voice on a Lancaster
intercom ...you shout to be heard over the bloody engine noise...

Look...let's just for a minute think. Did you ever hear a hot rod
with no muffler? Loud aint it?, and that's going by your house
maybe 30-40 feet away. How loud would you think FOUR huge 12
cylinder unmuffled hot rod engines would sound all within about
the same distance??...it's so loud in fact that you can't use
the intercom on takeoff, it's all hand signals.
--

-Gord.

" wrote:

Guy Alcala wrote:

Andrew Chaplin wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message

snip

Personally I'm inclined to the view that it was not uttered
by the skipper at all but by an actor or continuity man in
BBC Broadcasting house when they were cleaning up the
tape.

I subscribe to the re-enactment hypothesis too, that way the BBC man and
the aircrew would have been able to say he was really there to record the
sortie and that they had really said those things. The only anomalous
thing seems to be the use of "bombardier".

Well, that, the lack of use of first names for the crew members other than
the pilot ("skipper" is correct), and the lack of profanity. Of course, a
crew that knew they were being recorded might well have tried to sound more
'professional'; use of names instead of job titles was officially frowned
upon, but almost universally practiced by the crews. I'd be willing to bet,
though, that the original language was a hell of a lot more salty, especially
when reacting to or talking about the fighter. I lean towards the cleaned-up
reconstruction view.

Guy

Come ON you guys...how in hell did they get all the engine noise
out?...NOBODY talks in a low conversational voice on a Lancaster
intercom ...you shout to be heard over the bloody engine noise...

Look...let's just for a minute think. Did you ever hear a hot rod
with no muffler? Loud aint it?, and that's going by your house
maybe 30-40 feet away. How loud would you think FOUR huge 12
cylinder unmuffled hot rod engines would sound all within about
the same distance??...it's so loud in fact that you can't use
the intercom on takeoff, it's all hand signals.

Without knowing how directional the in-mask mikes are, or their noise-cancelling
qualities/frequency characteristics, I'm not qualified to comment so I'll happily
defer to you on that point, although you've said that you used handheld rather
than throat or in-mask mikes. My only personal experience is with modern headset
mikes, which do indeed elminate most if not all of the engine noise (albeit a far
less powerful, single or dual piston engine).

Guy

Guy Alcala wrote:


Without knowing how directional the in-mask mikes are, or their noise-cancelling
qualities/frequency characteristics, I'm not qualified to comment so I'll happily
defer to you on that point, although you've said that you used handheld rather
than throat or in-mask mikes. My only personal experience is with modern headset
mikes, which do indeed elminate most if not all of the engine noise (albeit a far
less powerful, single or dual piston engine).

Guy

Yes indeed, those modern noise cancelling mikes are great, I
think some use sort of a feedback 'out of phase' of ambient noise
to cancel the noise, they work great but no such niceties were
available to us. We did (for the most part) use carbon hand held
mics but had carbon button mics inside the oxy masks for high
altitude ops. Most of us found them so muffled that we'd just pop
one side of the mask off to use the hand mic for a few secs.
--

-Gord.

Engine noise on aircraft has always been a problem, specifically on combat
(non-passenger) types. On some aircraft, you can tell which position a person
is sitting at by how much engine noise bleeds over to the ICS. Even something
as small as a B-25 has noticeable engine noise and high freq tones bleeding
over when you key the ICS, so I really can't see how a crew aboard a Lanc could
use their normal speaking voices and be heard. As for the technology of
noise-canceling microphones in 1943, I think its implausible that a Lanc would
be fitted with a system equipped with such microphones for every member of the
crew - I agree with the guys who feel this is a studio-done, or
studio-cleaned-up, product. I don't doubt that the dialogue came primarily
from a Lanc crew, but its too clean! Think of what its like in a WWII bomber -
you can barely hear yourself think. The drone of those Merlins would be
present on the recordings no matter what measures were taken to screen them out
- it would be like recording a dialogue aboard the "Maid of the Mist", and
somehow screening out the sounds of Niagra Falls, a few feet away. How likely
is that? My hunch is that the BBC guys did fly along on the mission, did
record it, and brought it back and (at a minimum) cleaned it up before
broadcast.
Next, I'd like to hear a recording of the Reichsjägerweile - the "running
commentary" radio broadcasts that occurred over Northern Europe during massive
Allied raids. Once the EW stations were overwhelmed, the Lulftwaffe ground
controllers switched to this commentary to tell units where and how the battle
raged - "Many trucks over Dortmund, heading Southward at 7,000 meters; at
fifteen after the hour, Christmas trees and duppel were dropped over Hanover
for what appears to be a feint attack. All aircraft in sector FA are ordered
to land for refueling and await further orders. Pfadfinder reported dropping
flares on Osnabruck in advance of a strong raid..." etc. Hour after hour of
the details of a strike, from the enemy perspective. I think it would be
highly interesting to hear, but as far as I know, there are no recordings
available...?

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Hi Gord

Nobody has addressed the issue of the use of the term bombardier by the
skipper.

Cheers...Chris