P-51's, Aces: A Special Gathering

On Aug 21, 11:14 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:





On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!


Hartmann for the most part was fighting inferior aircraft and the Red
Baron had an entire squadron protecting HIM while he did his hunting.






40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Aug 28, 12:09?pm, wrote:
On Aug 21, 11:14 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

Hartmann for the most part was fighting inferior aircraft and the Red
Baron had an entire squadron protecting HIM while he did his hunting.





40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hartmann's strategy was a simplistic one- get on your enemy's six
position and stay there, blasting away until the a/c is destroyed.
Hartmann did this to perfection and many times was struck by debris of
the enemy a/c since he was firing at almost point-blank range.

This started with the heavily armored Il-2s. Aiming for the vunerable
oil cooler meant you had to have great marksmanship and also be able
to hit at close range. Hartmann developed the close range strategy
from this and also his 'Last Ditch" maneuver that saved his life on
many occasions:

"As the enemy fighter approached, Hartmann used rudder to point his
fighter in a slightly different direction from the way it was going,
to mislead the attacker into misjudging the amount of deflection
required. When his opponent opened fire, Hartmann slammed the stick
into the far corner of the cockpit, putting his Messerschmitt into the
first half of an outside oblique loop."

- Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, Mike Spick

He also struck fear into the hearts of the entire VVS and USSR. He was
so feared that a price was put on his head. Even so, most VVS fighter
pilots fled when the saw his black tulip painted on his cowling or
heard his call sign "Karaya One". To them he was the "Black Devil".

When Hartmann ran into P-51s over Rumania he shot down 7 of them and
commented in his book that it was "nothing special".

He flew the Me Bf 109G.

So talk all the **** you want about the ace of aces with 352 kills and
WWI's Red Knight that had 80 kills.

No US fighter pilot or ANY combat pilot has reached those scores yet
and we are coming up to almost 100 years of aerial combat.

Rob

p.s. Even in another world war, which is certain to come, I don't
think the US will come anywhere near the German scores. I had a
braggart US naval aviator come to where I worked in the 1990s and
quickly put him to shame by asking him how good he thought he really
was. He replied, 'best in the world". I said "come back when you have
beaten the Red Knight's or Hartmann's scores... hmm, guess I'll never
see you again". He got all red faced and angry, and left. I was
waiting for that asshole to say something else. An asshole just like
you.

On Aug 28, 4:26?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
I had a
braggart US naval aviator come to where I worked in the 1990s and
quickly put him to shame by asking him how good he thought he really
was. He replied, 'best in the world". I said "come back when you have
beaten the Red Knight's or Hartmann's scores... hmm, guess I'll never
see you again". He got all red faced and angry, and left. I was
waiting for that asshole to say something else. An asshole just like
you

At least he'd handled a joystick other than the one he was born with.

tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 28, 4:26?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
I had a
braggart US naval aviator come to where I worked in the 1990s and
quickly put him to shame by asking him how good he thought he really
was. He replied, 'best in the world". I said "come back when you have
beaten the Red Knight's or Hartmann's scores... hmm, guess I'll never
see you again". He got all red faced and angry, and left. I was
waiting for that asshole to say something else. An asshole just like
you

At least he'd handled a joystick other than the one he was born with.

Good point, a B-8 grip at least serves a purpose.

The aviator probably left rather than risk jail time for punching
the crap out of aren't and burying what was left in a match box. People
like aren't rely on other people's maturity when they spout off like
that. One can only hope he will learn sooner rather than later.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Aug 28, 5:41?pm, Dan wrote:
tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 28, 4:26?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
I had a
braggart US naval aviator come to where I worked in the 1990s and
quickly put him to shame by asking him how good he thought he really
was. He replied, 'best in the world". I said "come back when you have
beaten the Red Knight's or Hartmann's scores... hmm, guess I'll never
see you again". He got all red faced and angry, and left. I was
waiting for that asshole to say something else. An asshole just like
you

At least he'd handled a joystick other than the one he was born with.

Good point, a B-8 grip at least serves a purpose.

The aviator probably left rather than risk jail time for punching
the crap out of aren't and burying what was left in a match box. People
like aren't rely on other people's maturity when they spout off like
that. One can only hope he will learn sooner rather than later.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That naval aviator had he chosen to fight would have had his arms and
legs broken- I would have made sure he wouldn't have been flying any
time soon afterwards. **** Dan, I am a big guy and worked construction
and warehouse all my life. I've dealth with real ganstas and hardcore
thugs from Folsom prison. That wimpy naval prick would have been
busted up badly had he thrown the first punch. He didn't even make a
move, the pretty boy. Being in the Navy means he probably was a queer
too and certainly didn't want to wrinkle his uniform.

Speaking of matchboxes... I'd like to meet your grandparents... what
German ashtray do you keep them in?

Rob

Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:41?pm, Dan wrote:
tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 28, 4:26?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
I had a
braggart US naval aviator come to where I worked in the 1990s and
quickly put him to shame by asking him how good he thought he really
was. He replied, 'best in the world". I said "come back when you have
beaten the Red Knight's or Hartmann's scores... hmm, guess I'll never
see you again". He got all red faced and angry, and left. I was
waiting for that asshole to say something else. An asshole just like
you
At least he'd handled a joystick other than the one he was born with.
Good point, a B-8 grip at least serves a purpose.

The aviator probably left rather than risk jail time for punching
the crap out of aren't and burying what was left in a match box. People
like aren't rely on other people's maturity when they spout off like
that. One can only hope he will learn sooner rather than later.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That naval aviator had he chosen to fight would have had his arms and
legs broken- I would have made sure he wouldn't have been flying any
time soon afterwards. **** Dan, I am a big guy and worked construction
and warehouse all my life. I've dealth with real ganstas and hardcore
thugs from Folsom prison. That wimpy naval prick would have been
busted up badly had he thrown the first punch. He didn't even make a
move, the pretty boy. Being in the Navy means he probably was a queer
too and certainly didn't want to wrinkle his uniform.

Speaking of matchboxes... I'd like to meet your grandparents... what
German ashtray do you keep them in?

Rob

And you are a liar. A few weeks ago you told us you were on
disability for diabetes.

I will ignore what you said about my family since you wouldn't say it
to my face. I won't stoop to your level and make comments about the
German half of your family.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

On Aug 28, 7:29?pm, Dan wrote:
Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 28, 5:41?pm, Dan wrote:
tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 28, 4:26?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
I had a
braggart US naval aviator come to where I worked in the 1990s and
quickly put him to shame by asking him how good he thought he really
was. He replied, 'best in the world". I said "come back when you have
beaten the Red Knight's or Hartmann's scores... hmm, guess I'll never
see you again". He got all red faced and angry, and left. I was
waiting for that asshole to say something else. An asshole just like
you
At least he'd handled a joystick other than the one he was born with.
Good point, a B-8 grip at least serves a purpose.

The aviator probably left rather than risk jail time for punching
the crap out of aren't and burying what was left in a match box. People
like aren't rely on other people's maturity when they spout off like
that. One can only hope he will learn sooner rather than later.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That naval aviator had he chosen to fight would have had his arms and
legs broken- I would have made sure he wouldn't have been flying any
time soon afterwards. **** Dan, I am a big guy and worked construction
and warehouse all my life. I've dealth with real ganstas and hardcore
thugs from Folsom prison. That wimpy naval prick would have been
busted up badly had he thrown the first punch. He didn't even make a
move, the pretty boy. Being in the Navy means he probably was a queer
too and certainly didn't want to wrinkle his uniform.

Speaking of matchboxes... I'd like to meet your grandparents... what
German ashtray do you keep them in?

Rob

And you are a liar. A few weeks ago you told us you were on
disability for diabetes.

I will ignore what you said about my family since you wouldn't say it
to my face. I won't stoop to your level and make comments about the
German half of your family.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not a liar at all, you moron. That incident happened in the
1990s. What year is it Dan? Gee, 2007. I have been disabled with
diabetes type II since 2004 and have already told you I am retired.

Has your memory faded away so quickly?

If I were working F/T right now, how the hell could I post at my
leisure all day long and take care of my child at the same time?

I am just a few years younger than Gordon.

Rob

On Aug 28, 10:05?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
That naval aviator had he chosen to fight would have had his arms and
legs broken- I would have made sure he wouldn't have been flying any
time soon afterwards. **** Dan, I am a big guy and worked construction
and warehouse all my life. I've dealth with real ganstas and hardcore
thugs from Folsom prison. That wimpy naval prick would have been
busted up badly had he thrown the first punch. He didn't even make a
move, the pretty boy. Being in the Navy means he probably was a queer
too and certainly didn't want to wrinkle his uniform.

You don't get it, do you.
He's a NAVAL AVIATOR, who flew the top of the line navy fighter, and
you . . . don't seem to have flown anything more than a keyboard.
You're a big guy. Big guys load the ordnance on a plane he flies at
Mach 2. Your opinion means about as much to him as that of the guy
yelling **** from the steam grate he sleeps on.

On 8/29/07 5:54 AM, in article
, "tomcervo"
wrote:

On Aug 28, 10:05?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
That naval aviator had he chosen to fight would have had his arms and
legs broken- I would have made sure he wouldn't have been flying any
time soon afterwards. **** Dan, I am a big guy and worked construction
and warehouse all my life. I've dealth with real ganstas and hardcore
thugs from Folsom prison. That wimpy naval prick would have been
busted up badly had he thrown the first punch. He didn't even make a
move, the pretty boy. Being in the Navy means he probably was a queer
too and certainly didn't want to wrinkle his uniform.

You don't get it, do you.
He's a NAVAL AVIATOR, who flew the top of the line navy fighter, and
you . . . don't seem to have flown anything more than a keyboard.
You're a big guy. Big guys load the ordnance on a plane he flies at
Mach 2. Your opinion means about as much to him as that of the guy
yelling **** from the steam grate he sleeps on.


Hey, guys: those of us who fly gliders appreciate the notification about the
P-51 thing. Really.

But now that the discussion has degenerated into puerile name calling and
kindergarten level "I'm tougher than you" posturing, please take it
elsewhere. At least take it off rec.aviation.soaring.

Thanks in advance.

On Aug 29, 4:54?am, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 28, 10:05?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

That naval aviator had he chosen to fight would have had his arms and
legs broken- I would have made sure he wouldn't have been flying any
time soon afterwards. **** Dan, I am a big guy and worked construction
and warehouse all my life. I've dealth with real ganstas and hardcore
thugs from Folsom prison. That wimpy naval prick would have been
busted up badly had he thrown the first punch. He didn't even make a
move, the pretty boy. Being in the Navy means he probably was a queer
too and certainly didn't want to wrinkle his uniform.

You don't get it, do you.
He's a NAVAL AVIATOR, who flew the top of the line navy fighter, and
you . . . don't seem to have flown anything more than a keyboard.
You're a big guy. Big guys load the ordnance on a plane he flies at
Mach 2. Your opinion means about as much to him as that of the guy
yelling **** from the steam grate he sleeps on.

You don't get it, that naval aviator is not an entity unto himself- he
relies completely on the US taxpayer to foot the bill for his carrier,
all of its weaponry, and its entire operation. Onboard, he is part of
an operation and relies completely on the deck crews. Get some "big
guy" that ****s up his ordnance and his top of the line fighter
becomes impotent- flying scrap metal.

As far as his opinion goes, who here worships a naval aviator? These
are the same braggarts that think they are something special b/c they
can land on a carrier and put down the USAF pilots all the time.

BTW, how the **** do you know if he was flying an old F-14 or a F/A-18
or something else???

Answer that dickhead.

Rob

p.s. And if he was God-D good, then it really must be shameful that
the inexperienced Germans beat both the USN and USMC with their de-
tuned MiG-29s