Bonanza crash caught on video

"RST Engineering" wrote

As the survivor of two engine failures, one accident, one glider landing,
the thing I took away from the first one is that once the engine fails,
hoping it will come back at the last instant is the last thing you want to
do. If the landing is inevitable, keep that damned double-bladed sword up
front from making things worse. When it gets down to a couple of hundred
feet, chop the power, kill the mixture, turn the mags off and let the
sucker stop.

Not sure if there was time to do that in this case, but I suppose if he had
thought "really fast" he could have perhaps done that.

Looks to me like that prop turning at 50% power or so is what inverted
this poor bugger once it dug into that hillside.

Hard to say for sure, but it is certainly possible.

Remember, to the engine it matters little whether it is the propeller or
the airframe that turns. Stop one and the other will continue to rotate.

Yep. Plus, if the engine has been shut off just for a couple seconds, it
could cool enough that there are fewer hot sources to ignite a fuel spill.
Plus, the master being off will provide fewer broken electrical bits (like
that use of correct technical nomenclature? g ) with spare electrons
running around inside them, trying to leak out! g
--
Jim in NC

On Sep 1, 10:56 pm, "Morgans" wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote

What seems obvious is not always the answer, and it's the wise pilot who
realizes the real safety message will be found along the investigative
path that follows the video rather than by watching the video itself
without this valuable information.

Although I agree in principle as to what you said, I wonder if in this case,
we can all take away some knowledge, and cautions, just from the
speculations to the possible causes.

I don't know if I am explaining myself very clearly. What I'm thinking is
that everyone may take some cautions to not do EACH of the possible causes
that have been offered up, even if only one or a combinations of a few of
the offered explanations are really the cause.

What do we take away with us, as possible causes?

1) Downwind takeoff - bad, when conditions may be close to performance
limitations.

2) Downwind takeoffs even worse when you get above the tree line.

3) Importance of calculating DA, with a conservative slant. Also to add
other performance reducing factors into the performance calculations.

4) Overweight takeoffs are a "bad idea." Weight and CG should be closely
considered, especially when it is close to maximum.

5) Lean if necessary for an elevated DA.

6) Possible (big emphasis on this, since we don't really have a reliable
indication if the engine was running poorly) rough running engines will hurt
takeoff and climb, especially when takeoff performance calculations are
marginal.

7) Raising the nose further while on the brink of a stall is all it takes
to insure a stall will occur.

It seems likely to me, that one, or more likely more or all of the above had
a part in the crash. Possible, even probable there are others that nobody
has mentioned, or thought of.

Still, it makes me think about all of the above while preparing for the next
takeoff. Would you, and others, think about it in that way?

To me, not knowing what the cause was would remind me to consider all of the
possible causes, rather than just the one or ones that are really
responsible.

How about you? Do you have any other pet theories, or think one of the
reasons I have written down may be largely responsible?
--
Jim in NC

Jim

I dont know that the data (the video and incomplete WAT data) support
any conclusion right now.

Should pilots use prudent flying techniques? Yes. The difference
between an amateur and professional pilot is not the airplane that
they fly, but it is the method and procedures by which they fly the
airplane. All pilots should fly their aircraft within the performance
parameters of the vehicle. All pilots should use standardized
procedures and methods in their flying. All pilots should have
"benchmarks" which measure performance of the vehicle and trigger
alternate scenarios.

But otherwise right now there are no real lessons to be learned from
the video tape. This might turn out to be the Kenner crash...for the
WAT and the wind performance problems NOTHING the pilot did except not
going would have changed the outcome...or it might turn out to be that
the accident was Delta at DFW...(the 727) stupid on its face.

Robert

"Luke Skywalker" wrote

I dont know that the data (the video and incomplete WAT data) support
any conclusion right now.

You missed my point. I admit that it is impossible to draw a conclusion,
right now.

Should pilots use prudent flying techniques? Yes. The difference
between an amateur and professional pilot is not the airplane that
they fly, but it is the method and procedures by which they fly the
airplane. All pilots should fly their aircraft within the performance
parameters of the vehicle. All pilots should use standardized
procedures and methods in their flying. All pilots should have
"benchmarks" which measure performance of the vehicle and trigger
alternate scenarios.

That all goes without saying.

But otherwise right now there are no real lessons to be learned from
the video tape. .

I DO dissagree with that. The lesson is to keep in mind that one, or some,
or all of the things I mentioned need to be kept at the front of your mind,
and even though they should be, they might not be fresh in your mind. Any
of them could ruin your day, in a big way.

It all does not matter, from what point of view you choose to view learning
from this accident. It may help some, it may not help anyone. To each his
own. Everyone is entitled to their own views, and opinions, and that's fine
with me.

Over and out.
--
Jim in NC

On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:06:04 -0700, Airbus wrote:

I'm voting for overweight.
After what appears to be a relativly long roll, you can see the plane mushing
and stalling trying to climb.

I saw the video on a computer without sound, so I don't know if they said how
many people were on board, but this plane, even with no flaps, should climb out
just fine.



What about watching this type of video - is it useful for our awareness as
pilots? I tend to think it is, but that's just a personal opinion. Where I grew
up, the State Police used to do an auto safety presentation every year to
students who were about to get their driving licenses. They would show gory,
shocking films of accident scenes, hoping to impress the young, future drivers.
They don't do that any more, but I don't know if this is because they feel it
was not effective, or because they are concerned it is no longer socially

I was told by the a State Police officer that although in the short
term those presentations had a positive effect, the long term effect
was negative. People and particularly the young have a tendency to
push the envelope. It works out to , "I've been doing that for a long
time and nothing happened to me, or I know some one who does that all
the time". We had the same kind of problems in industry safety.

"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:06:04 -0700, Airbus wrote:
I was told by the a State Police officer that although in the short
term those presentations had a positive effect, the long term effect
was negative. People and particularly the young have a tendency to
push the envelope. It works out to , "I've been doing that for a long
time and nothing happened to me, or I know some one who does that all
the time". We had the same kind of problems in industry safety.

I think it was Kelly Johnson who said "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler." Same sort of adage, you
really don't know where the line is unless you cross it (or unless you pay attention and do what you are told!)

Blueskies wrote:
"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:06:04 -0700, Airbus wrote:
I was told by the a State Police officer that although in the short
term those presentations had a positive effect, the long term effect
was negative. People and particularly the young have a tendency to
push the envelope. It works out to , "I've been doing that for a long
time and nothing happened to me, or I know some one who does that all
the time". We had the same kind of problems in industry safety.

I think it was Kelly Johnson who said "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler." Same sort of adage, you
really don't know where the line is unless you cross it (or unless you pay attention and do what you are told!)


Either Johnson or William of Occam. :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Blueskies wrote:
"Roger (K8RI)" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 13:06:04 -0700, Airbus wrote:
I was told by the a State Police officer that although in the short
term those presentations had a positive effect, the long term effect
was negative. People and particularly the young have a tendency to
push the envelope. It works out to , "I've been doing that for a long
time and nothing happened to me, or I know some one who does that all
the time". We had the same kind of problems in industry safety.

I think it was Kelly Johnson who said "Make things as simple as possible, but no simpler." Same sort of adage, you
really don't know where the line is unless you cross it (or unless you pay attention and do what you are told!)

As much as I admire and respect Kelly, I believe that line was said
earlier by Albert Einstein.

Matt

That is correct by my memory.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...


As much as I admire and respect Kelly, I believe that line was said
earlier by Albert Einstein.

Matt

"RST Engineering" wrote in message ...
That is correct by my memory.

Jim

--
"If you think you can, or think you can't, you're right."
--Henry Ford

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message ...


As much as I admire and respect Kelly, I believe that line was said earlier by Albert Einstein.

Matt



Yup, you folks are right...Johnson said simplicate, don't complicate...