NPR discussion on NAS

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:44:43 +0000, Neil Gould wrote:


Even then, I didn't get the impression that he
was using the term "GA" to refer to us spam can pilots, but to business
jet operations.

My opinion is that this is just a "divide and conquer" approach:

"Corporate GA has more money, so let's go after them. The little guys
won't complain about that. And after corporate GA is used to funding the
airlines, we'll hit the little guys. They don't have much, but that just
means that they cannot fund a PR campaign against us."


Another participant contributed the idea that the NAS is as much a part
of our nation's infrastructure as are roads and bridges, and should just
be paid for in the same manner as those aspects. From that perspective,
it's a matter of priorities, and anyone short of the village idiot could
see that the total cost of upgrading and maintaining the NAS is a drop
in the bucket compared to drains such as a war in Iraq that shouldn't
have been started in the first place.

It was a good point; not enough is said about the economic impact air
travel has on the US. It would be nice to have numbers for this. Anyone
have references?

[...]

Well, on this point we part ways. 1200s don't "blunder around" in the
airways or in Class A and usually not Class B. Certainly not to the
point where they are an impediment on the system.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "blunder". But a 1200 absolutely
can get in the way of airline and corporate GA operations, at least
around here. If I were to choose to practice spiral ascents and descents
around COL, for example, I could put a serious crimp in EWR outbound
traffic to the south (when the wind is blowing the right way).

I'm sure that ATC would work around this...but that's "work".

My typical "practice area" is north of SAX. I'm always on advisories for
this, and they always warn me to keep a ceiling of 5000 to avoid the
incoming traffic passing SAX. I could ignore those warnings, or simply
not talk to them. And if I were to practice maneuvers above 5000, I'd be
a crimp again.

And this is outside the mode C ring!

I've no problem being a "good neighbor". And that includes being in touch
with ATC. Much of the benefit of this, though, goes to the neighbor. So
while I don't mind it, I do get annoyed when some representative of the
neighbor wants to charge me for this!


One interesting bit of the article for me was a rational defense of
hub-and-spoke. Was the speaker wrong?

See above. The only defendant of the hub system that I heard was the
airline rep, and his point was that it provided access to airline travel
from locations such as in Maine that couldn't support direct airport
operations. That is the same justification that created the
hub-and-spoke system. But, other participants and callers challenged
that notion on a number of bases; it just doesn't work in reality. I
thought the discussion touched on much of the rhetoric that we hear, and
debunked a lot of it.

But would dropping H&S further reduce air travel to those "smaller"
destinations? It does appear a reasonable possibility (from my admittedly
ignorant position).

- Andrew

Recently, Andrew Gideon posted:

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 09:44:43 +0000, Neil Gould wrote:


Even then, I didn't get the impression that he
was using the term "GA" to refer to us spam can pilots, but to
business jet operations.

My opinion is that this is just a "divide and conquer" approach:

"Corporate GA has more money, so let's go after them. The little guys
won't complain about that. And after corporate GA is used to funding
the airlines, we'll hit the little guys. They don't have much, but
that just means that they cannot fund a PR campaign against us."

You could be right about the intentions of some who espouse that position,
but if I could glean a level of interest based on the respondents in this
broadcast, it didn't seem to get much traction.

[...]
Well, on this point we part ways. 1200s don't "blunder around" in the
airways or in Class A and usually not Class B. Certainly not to the
point where they are an impediment on the system.

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term "blunder". But a 1200
absolutely can get in the way of airline and corporate GA operations,
at least around here. If I were to choose to practice spiral ascents
and descents around COL, for example, I could put a serious crimp in
EWR outbound traffic to the south (when the wind is blowing the right
way).

I'm sure that ATC would work around this...but that's "work".

Not that it couldn't or doesn't happen, but II would think that such
impositions would have a very small impact on 135 operations.

One interesting bit of the article for me was a rational defense of
hub-and-spoke. Was the speaker wrong?

See above. The only defendant of the hub system that I heard was the
airline rep, and his point was that it provided access to airline
travel from locations such as in Maine that couldn't support direct
airport operations. That is the same justification that created the
hub-and-spoke system. But, other participants and callers challenged
that notion on a number of bases; it just doesn't work in reality. I
thought the discussion touched on much of the rhetoric that we hear,
and debunked a lot of it.

But would dropping H&S further reduce air travel to those "smaller"
destinations? It does appear a reasonable possibility (from my
admittedly ignorant position).

Even the major airlines are putting more small jets into service. Most of
the commercial travel that we've done out of CLE in the last few years
have been on Embraers and 737s. For the really remote areas in Maine, New
Hampshire, etc. VLJs may play a larger roll. Expansion of both of these
should eliminate the need of H & S simply to service these areas. And, it
might eliminate scenarios such as what we ran into trying to book an
upcoming trip to Seattle via Las Vegas. The only available flights from
the major had us flying to Seattle via Houston! Surely, that is not
cost-effective?

Neil

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:53:42 +0000, Neil Gould wrote:

"Corporate GA has more money, so let's go after them. The little guys
won't complain about that. And after corporate GA is used to funding
the airlines, we'll hit the little guys. They don't have much, but that
just means that they cannot fund a PR campaign against us."

You could be right about the intentions of some who espouse that position,
but if I could glean a level of interest based on the respondents in this
broadcast, it didn't seem to get much traction.

I think most of the pilots here - at least amongst those that view
services like ATC and management of the nation's airspace as a government
function - recognize the divide and conquer strategy being applied.
Certainly AOPA does.

Well...some use the "camel nose in the tent" view, but it amounts to the
same thing in this case.

[...]

I'm sure that ATC would work around this...but that's "work".

Not that it couldn't or doesn't happen, but II would think that such
impositions would have a very small impact on 135 operations.

Around here, a fixed set of "gates" are used. It would be easy for those
gates to be "blocked" by VFR traffic. Then ATC needs to work around this.
It may have little impact on charter or airline operations, but it would
be more work for controllers.

It would be less work to avoid this by having that VFR target not be
there. That's a side effect of having us piston drivers IFR (or VFR with
advisories and willing to deviate on request).

That's all I wrote: that having use "talking" makes for less work for ATC.
Even just having a confirmed mode C is helpful.

[...]


But would dropping H&S further reduce air travel to those "smaller"
destinations? It does appear a reasonable possibility (from my
admittedly ignorant position).

Even the major airlines are putting more small jets into service. Most
of the commercial travel that we've done out of CLE in the last few
years have been on Embraers and 737s. For the really remote areas in
Maine, New Hampshire, etc. VLJs may play a larger roll. Expansion of
both of these should eliminate the need of H & S simply to service these
areas.

I share the hope that the "air taxi" concept will help serve these areas,
VLJs or whatever (isn't someone running a taxi service with Cirri?).
Perhaps that will kill the need for H&S.

Can the airlines do this? Or do they view air taxi operations as
competition?

I wonder what impact the shrinking of airline aircraft has on their costs.
I mean: is there some fixed per-flight cost which would define the
smallest aircraft they could "schedule"?

I cannot help notice that this push on the part of the airlines for
control over ATC and our airspace comes as a potential competitor is
possibly arriving. Coincidence? I wonder.

But does this mean that H&S was always flawed? Or did it make sense in
one environment, but not in the environment we hope is coming?

- Andrew

Recently, Andrew Gideon posted:

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 18:53:42 +0000, Neil Gould wrote:

Even the major airlines are putting more small jets into service.
Most
of the commercial travel that we've done out of CLE in the last few
years have been on Embraers and 737s. For the really remote areas in
Maine, New Hampshire, etc. VLJs may play a larger roll. Expansion of
both of these should eliminate the need of H & S simply to service
these areas.

I share the hope that the "air taxi" concept will help serve these
areas, VLJs or whatever (isn't someone running a taxi service with
Cirri?). Perhaps that will kill the need for H&S.

Can the airlines do this? Or do they view air taxi operations as
competition?

I wouldn't be surprised if the airlines saw anything in the sky as
competition. ;-)

I wonder what impact the shrinking of airline aircraft has on their
costs. I mean: is there some fixed per-flight cost which would define
the smallest aircraft they could "schedule"?

The Embraers that we've been on are 60 seaters (or so), and that isn't
just for short hops. I prefer them to the larger planes because they have
more comfortable seating.

I cannot help notice that this push on the part of the airlines for
control over ATC and our airspace comes as a potential competitor is
possibly arriving. Coincidence? I wonder.

I think you're on to something, there. Probably not a coincidence.

But does this mean that H&S was always flawed? Or did it make sense
in one environment, but not in the environment we hope is coming?

I think it was a bad idea that cost so much that it would be difficult to
change. As a country, we seem to find ourselves in that position all to
often for my liking.

Neil