Fatal accident in Scotland

Depends on your definition of 'on'. I have my fingers
'on' the release at the start of a winch lauch. By
that I mean that I rest two straight fingers on the
top of the release knob, either side of the cable.
What I don't do is curl my fingers round it unless
I need to pull it.

At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
wrote:
I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick,

'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
that way!

Ian

FYI, quote from the BGA "SUPPLEMENT TO BGA ‘SAFE WINCH LAUNCHING’ LEAFLET" notes
for instructors:

"If the wing drops on the ground the glider may rotate about the wing tip and
cartwheel. If the wing drops in every hundredth launch, there will be one wing
drop accident in 800 wing drop incidents. This is a recipe for complacency and
indeed it is experienced pilots who have the majority of wing drop accidents.
After the wing has dropped the cartwheel can be so rapid that no recovery by
releasing or other means is possible. This hazard must be anticipated and
pre-empted by conducting the launch with the left hand on the release, and
releasing immediately if it is not possible to keep the wings level.




Andrew Warbrick wrote:
Depends on your definition of 'on'. I have my fingers
'on' the release at the start of a winch lauch. By
that I mean that I rest two straight fingers on the
top of the release knob, either side of the cable.
What I don't do is curl my fingers round it unless
I need to pull it.

At 19:01 04 September 2007, Ian wrote:
On 4 Sep, 17:31, Rory O'Conor
wrote:
I learnt to glide after the new system was introduced.
I have two hands and at the start of a winch launch
I want one hand on the =
release and the other on the joystick,
'On' the release? Eeek. People have had nasty accidents
that way!

Ian

On Sep 4, 10:55 pm, ucsdcpc wrote:
FYI, quote from the BGA "SUPPLEMENT TO BGA 'SAFE WINCH LAUNCHING' LEAFLET" notes
for instructors:

"If the wing drops on the ground the glider may rotate about the wing tip and
cartwheel. If the wing drops in every hundredth launch, there will be one wing
drop accident in 800 wing drop incidents. This is a recipe for complacency and
indeed it is experienced pilots who have the majority of wing drop accidents.
After the wing has dropped the cartwheel can be so rapid that no recovery by
releasing or other means is possible. This hazard must be anticipated and
pre-empted by conducting the launch with the left hand on the release, and
releasing immediately if it is not possible to keep the wings level.


A timely quote. Please heed.

I don't quite understand some of the discussion here. Things are very
simple.

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do. (If you're still fiddling with
the GPS at this point you're an idiot.) Then, "cable on please". You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. There is
no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
accidently. Think about how hard you need to pull to operate the
release, then try to imagine how a launch could be so rough that your
arm could be moved enough to generate that same force against your
will. Not going to happen.

If, for any reason, you are no longer happy with proceeding with the
launch while waiting for it to commence you pull the release.

If a wing touches the ground you release instantly. I've seen four
ground loops in the last month, each one because the pilot thought the
glider would recover. Sometimes it will, sometime it won't. What the
hell is the point in gambling on that? It takes all of a minute to
reposition the glider and tug or winch cable.

It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
safe, and that's all that matters to me.


Dan

On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do. (If you're still fiddling with
the GPS at this point you're an idiot.) Then, "cable on please".

Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.

You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. There is
no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
accidently.

Perhaps you always fly from nice, smooth, paved runways?

It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
safe, and that's all that matters to me.

It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.

Ian

On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do.

Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
and
state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.

Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
In what way isn't that a "safe system"?


You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

That's my opinion, too. As an early solo neophyte who recently
experienced
my first low-level winch failure, heads down while groping for the
cable
release would have been too high a workload. In addition, there is a
significant chance I would have grabbed the airbrake instead of the
release.


It's hard to see how you could screw up if you follow these simple
procedures. I don't give a toss who invented them or why - they're
safe, and that's all that matters to me.

I'm interested in
1) if I follow those standard rules, what are the remaining
potential
problems and avoidance procedures

2) what's the relative probability and severity of problems with/
without
hand on the release

I suspect the (2) is the reason for the BGA selecting the current
rules.

The onus is firmly on anybody challenging the current rules to
convince others that the rules should be changed.


It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.

True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
or not the rules are good.

On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote:

On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do.

Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
and
state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.

Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.

Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
In what way isn't that a "safe system"?

How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute? What if the ground is
muddy and the pilot doesn;t want to make someone grovel in the mud
again to reattach? What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this)
is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long".

Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
charge ... and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and
launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch
after the hook-up.

My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the
pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to
do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled
off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do
it again if I have to ...

It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.

True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
or not the rules are good.

I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.

Ian

On Sep 5, 2:40 pm, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:
You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do.

Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
and
state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.

If anyone isn't ready to go, then the launch doesn't start.
If anyone thinks there's a problem, they can stop the launch.
I don't see any difficulty in that, and I can't conceive of
anything else being appropriate.


Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.
Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
In what way isn't that a "safe system"?

How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute?

Reasonable question. I would have thought that there was
no single correct answer and doesn't need to be;
judgement is required from everybody.

My only rule of thumb is that if people's attention might
wander away from thinking about the launch and/or
"eventualities", then drop the cable. Thus a minute is
probably usually OK, whereas 5 minutes isn't.

Other opinions welcome, of course.

What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn't
want to make someone grovel in the mud
again to reattach?

The pilot is a twit if they let that sway a safety decision.

What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this)
is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long".

It depends on what "this" is, and I'd apply my "attention
test", as above.

Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
charge ...

Nope, it rests with everybody involved in the launch, in that all
must be happy before proceeding. In particular, the pilot can't
adequately see "all clear above and behind", nor the cow that
has just wandered onto the strip, just over that little hump
halfway down the strip

and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and
launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch
after the hook-up.

See above.

My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the
pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to
do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled
off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do
it again if I have to ...

I've never seen that, but if I did then I'd follow your action
(hopefully
without hesitation


It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.
True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
or not the rules are good.

I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.

The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
of the road

But both of us think the reason for the rule should be understood
before it is mindlessly followed!

You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

That's my opinion, too.


That *used* to be my opinion. What changed it was hitting a severe bump
and watching the end of the rope continue without me. Now, I keep my
left hand *very* close to the release handle. No groping needed at all
should you need to release.

Tony V.

"Dan G" wrote in message
ups.com...
You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

I am trying to think back, but with most (if not all) gliders I have flown
this would not be practical because of the dash-mounted position of the release
knob. I was taught that my left hand went behind (not on) the spoiler handle to
guard it closed. Here it can prevent another type of launch accident and still
be very close to the release knob.

There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release
accidently.

I have had some pretty violent launches. Things get bumpy when you are
rolling over grass on a single wheel at near-takeoff speeds.

Vaughn

The issue might not be violence, per se, but more the quick acceleration of
the launch compresses the seat pillow, moving the pilot back. Unless you're
on the ball, this can lead to unintended pull back on the stick. If your
hand is on the release, you might release by mistake. I prefer to keep my
knuckles on the release so I can easily reach it.

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
news

"Dan G" wrote in message
ups.com...
You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.

I am trying to think back, but with most (if not all) gliders I have
flown this would not be practical because of the dash-mounted position of
the release knob. I was taught that my left hand went behind (not on) the
spoiler handle to guard it closed. Here it can prevent another type of
launch accident and still be very close to the release knob.

There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the
release
accidently.

I have had some pretty violent launches. Things get bumpy when you
are rolling over grass on a single wheel at near-takeoff speeds.

Vaughn