Bonanza crash caught on video

On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:18:03 -0600, Newps wrote:



Roger (K8RI) wrote:

On Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:54:03 -0600, Newps wrote:



Roger (K8RI) wrote:



"I think" meaning I don't know for sure, that flaps slow the
acceleration enough that nothing is gained in distance by using them.

It reduces ground roll by 20%.


It might get me into ground effect a bit earlier, but the end result
would take more distance to clear thatl 50 foot obstical.

That is not the case. You clear 50 feet sooner with flaps than without.

I quote from the "American Bonanza Society Pilot Proficiency Training
manual:

Short Field Takeoffs:

1: Align the aircraft with the runway, Apply full power prior to brake
release. "FLAPS SHOULD BE UP" (Emphasis mine) unless otherwise stated
in the POH for the specific aircraft.

2. Accelerate with pitch attitude near neutral to Vx.

3. Rotate positively at Vx and stay at Vx until the obstacle is
cleared.

4. As noted elsewhere and in this manual the drag of the extended gear
at Vx has little or no effect on climb performance. Accordingly, on
climbouts from short field takeoffs The landing gear should not be
retracted until obstacles and terrain are cleared. Then raise the gear
and accelerate to Vy.


A lot sooner, 33% in fact. A Bonanza with a 520 at 2800 pounds,

Not according to the manual.

5000 feet and 32 degrees gets these results: Flaps 20...Lift off in 876
feet and thru 50 feet in 1200 feet. No flaps...Lift off in 944 feet and
thru 50 feet in 1600 feet. There will be minor differences among the
various Bonanza models but all will perform basically the same.

Roger (K8RI) wrote:




A lot sooner, 33% in fact. A Bonanza with a 520 at 2800 pounds,


Not according to the manual.

Your manual doesn't say anything about flaps for any takeoff. Nor does
it say anything about any surface othr than a hard surface runway.
Other publications do. I'm sure you're familiar with Eckalbar's book.
The answers and more math than you can handle will spell it all out in
there. Even with out going to the book it doesn't take a rocket
scientist to tell a takeoff with flaps is much shorter.

On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 08:39:53 -0600, Newps wrote:



Roger (K8RI) wrote:




A lot sooner, 33% in fact. A Bonanza with a 520 at 2800 pounds,


Not according to the manual.

Your manual doesn't say anything about flaps for any takeoff. Nor does

Good Lord! I just quoted the "short field take off procedure" from
the American Bonanza Society "Pilot Proficiency Training Manual" and
you say my manual doesn't say anything about flaps for any take off
and I even listed the name of the manual. The Short field TO is on
page 36. Having to repeat myself, it says "Do not use flaps unless
stated to do so in the POH for the specific aircraft".


it say anything about any surface othr than a hard surface runway.

It certainly does.
On page 33 it lists the average take off distances for
concrete/asphalt, hard turf, avg field with short grass, avg field
with long grass, soft ground and very soft ground.

Other publications do. I'm sure you're familiar with Eckalbar's book.
The answers and more math than you can handle will spell it all out in

Although it's been a while (17 years) one of my minors was in math so
I think I could probably handle it.

there. Even with out going to the book it doesn't take a rocket
scientist to tell a takeoff with flaps is much shorter.

In most cases I'd agree, but, why or why does the American Bonanza
Society Pilot Proficiency Training Manual (put together by the Air
Safety Foundation), say do not use flaps unless it says to do so in
the POH for the specific aircraft. My POH does not say to use flaps so
I follow the ABS training manual and do not use them.

This is what they teach in the "Bonanza Specific" pilot proficiency
program and I'm quite willing to take their experienced word for these
specific aircraft.

BTW when you go through the manual they have you using *full* flaps on
all landings too.

If you still have a problem with this I suggest you call the American
Bonanza Society http://www.bonanza.org/ at:

The American Bonanza Society
P.O. Box 12888
Wichita, Kansas 67277
Telephone: 316/945-1700

And argue with them.

Roger (K8RI)