What GA needs

B A R R Y wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

You say that like Fractional ownership is a new thing. It has been
around for years. We just called it partnerships and flying clubs in
the past.


And now, it's for hot rods, too!

http://www.velocity-club.com/index.cfm

I got handed a brochure for this while checking out the new Lotus
models and a GT-40 at Lime Rock two weeks ago.

You have just hit on the instant gratification problem which might be the
real root cause of the downfall of aviation.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

You have just hit on the instant gratification problem which might be the
real root cause of the downfall of aviation.

You have just mentioned the problem that's probably responsible for the
downfall of lots of activities that involve learning any sort of skill.

--Whiny voice on--

"It's too complicated!"
"Awww... Do I HAVE to do it again?"
"Who has time for THAT?"

--Whiny voice off--

I see it in woodworking, craft hobbies, even bicycling.

In recent years, the radio control flying hobby has been flooded with
models built in Chinese factories, so participants don't have to "waste"
time building (and therefore learning to repair) a model. Lots of
people who didn't "waste" even more time learning how to fly, fly them
once and crash, then give up the hobby.

No matter how money much we spend on a bicycle, riding it probably won't
be all that enjoyable if we don't ride on a regular basis.

I've read that the #1 leisure time activity in the USA is shopping. 8^(

On the other hand, I don't necessarily put the exotic car club in the
same category, due to the ability for a true enthusiast to drive a
diverse set of vehicles. I'd put it more toward a good flying club that
has aircraft available for a variety of different missions.

I would definitely extend the need for instant gratification to the
sub-prime mortgage debacle. Nothing down? Ridiculously low payment?
Why read the paperwork or pay an attorney to explain it to me in plain
English? I also see it with people who are willing to hand their entire
life's savings to some investment advisor without putting any effort
into learning about the products the money gets invested in.

On Sep 11, 8:54 am, B A R R Y wrote:

I see it in woodworking, craft hobbies, even bicycling.

I can tell you that among photographers, the people who really get
into it get into it with a mad passion, debating each and every little
minute detail. The other day I read a thread on another group that
went on for days and got into the elementary physics of how digital
imaging sensors work. This is a hard-core group. (These are dSLR
people, not point-and-shooters, for the record.)

Similarly, here in Silicon Valley, I know lots of people who bicycle
with an odd ferocity. A century ride every weekend, a few hundred
miles during the week, constant tinkering and upgrading, all dinner
party conversation about the next race or triathlon. As a recreational
rider who has not gotten bitten by this particular bug, I can tell
you, it can be pretty boring to hang out with these guys!

My wife, also a youngster by aviation standards is really into dance.
She did ballet since forever, and now, even though she has a career
that has nothing to do with dance, she still goes to take classes a
several times a week. Easily enough time to become and remain
proficient in an aircraft. So here's a counterexample showing that
commitment still does exist!

Interestingly, the first two of these hobbies can easily cost a
serious amateur $5000/yr. That is very close to, if not well into
flying territory.

I would definitely extend the need for instant gratification to the
sub-prime mortgage debacle. Nothing down? Ridiculously low payment?

Don't get me started on that! I agree with you. That we are starting
to bail these people out makes me wretch. Everyone who knew their
limits and did not participate is punished, and the people who
overstretched get free help from Uncle Sam. This is not going to
encourage healthy behavior.

-- dave j

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
t...
Gig 601XL Builder wrote:


I've read that the #1 leisure time activity in the USA is shopping. 8^(

Not TV?

On Sep 11, 8:02 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

You have just hit on the instant gratification problem which might be the
real root cause of the downfall of aviation.

Okay, this is also interesting, but let me take the devil's advocate
positions for a little while.

*Should* it require so much training and time to learn to fly safely?
Exactly what should the "gratification curve" look like? I'll give
you, there's something depressing about people who want to get all the
fun and utility out of something the moment they take it out of the
box. But, learning to fly is a pretty serious investment of time and
effort. Is it reasonable of us to expect the average joe/jane with 101
other priorities to follow this undertaking?

Maybe at least part of the "fault" here is simply that planes have not
gotten better enough? They don't (practically) fly themselves, there
are too many rules to know, the aircraft will "let you" crash it, etc.

I mean, admit it, you sort of like knowing all the FARs (especially
controversial or commonly misinterpreted ones). You dig the tricks
that aerodynamics play on pilots. It's actually cool information!

I bet you that every certificated pilot on this board has at least a
shelf full of aviation books. I've noticed that a good fraction of my
plane books are really all about decision-making. Is that "normal?"
Most drivers don't have a shelf of car books. They don't think too
hard about whether they should drive today.

I dunno. We may have to face facts. Aviation may just be different.
More of an affliction than a sport/hobby.

-- dave j

Dave J wrote:
On Sep 11, 8:02 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

You have just hit on the instant gratification problem which might
be the real root cause of the downfall of aviation.

Okay, this is also interesting, but let me take the devil's advocate
positions for a little while.

*Should* it require so much training and time to learn to fly safely?
Exactly what should the "gratification curve" look like? I'll give
you, there's something depressing about people who want to get all the
fun and utility out of something the moment they take it out of the
box. But, learning to fly is a pretty serious investment of time and
effort. Is it reasonable of us to expect the average joe/jane with 101
other priorities to follow this undertaking?

Maybe at least part of the "fault" here is simply that planes have not
gotten better enough? They don't (practically) fly themselves, there
are too many rules to know, the aircraft will "let you" crash it, etc.

I mean, admit it, you sort of like knowing all the FARs (especially
controversial or commonly misinterpreted ones). You dig the tricks
that aerodynamics play on pilots. It's actually cool information!

I bet you that every certificated pilot on this board has at least a
shelf full of aviation books. I've noticed that a good fraction of my
plane books are really all about decision-making. Is that "normal?"
Most drivers don't have a shelf of car books. They don't think too
hard about whether they should drive today.

I dunno. We may have to face facts. Aviation may just be different.
More of an affliction than a sport/hobby.

-- dave j


They have shortened the time it takes to get a certificate that will let you
do what 90% of the private pilots do by about half. So that is a start.

As far as planes not flying themselves neither do cars. I'll bet you can
take the average driver from today and put him in a car from the 30's and
they won't have to much trouble. Except maybe with the manual transmission.

But the rest of your statement basically boils down to not wanting to learn
something complex. And that can be further reduced to instant gratification.

On Sep 11, 9:59 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

They have shortened the time it takes to get a certificate that will let you
do what 90% of the private pilots do by about half. So that is a start.

Agreed.

As far as planes not flying themselves neither do cars. I'll bet you can
take the average driver from today and put him in a car from the 30's and
they won't have to much trouble. Except maybe with the manual transmission.

Yeah, but cars are easy to drive. Actually, as far as basic
transportation, I think airplanes are pretty easy to fly, too. What
makes airplanes different are the squirrely corners of their
envelopes, and the fundamentally fail-unsafe failure mode that comes
from being in the sky, in vehicle that cannot be "pulled over."

But the rest of your statement basically boils down to not wanting to learn
something complex. And that can be further reduced to instant gratification.

Right! But why must aviation be so complex? It requires a level of
training commensurate with, say, some trades and para-professional
degrees. Should that level of training be the necessary cost of entry?

There is a spectrum between instant gratification, and a long, hard
slog uphill. It's not so black and white. People do *learn* to drive.
It doesn't happen instantly, and in fact, if you've watched teenagers
drive recently, I'm sure you realize that it actually takes years to
get really good at it. So people do put in some level of effort.

I just am tired of hearing about how lazy "kids today" are. People
have been muttering about "kids today" forever. Either man has been on
a constant descent to laziness or stupidity, or much more likely, the
notion is absurd. As tempting as it is to go for the first option, the
second is much more likely.

-- dave j

Dave J wrote:
On Sep 11, 9:59 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

They have shortened the time it takes to get a certificate that will
let you do what 90% of the private pilots do by about half. So that
is a start.

Agreed.

As far as planes not flying themselves neither do cars. I'll bet you
can take the average driver from today and put him in a car from the
30's and they won't have to much trouble. Except maybe with the
manual transmission.

Yeah, but cars are easy to drive. Actually, as far as basic
transportation, I think airplanes are pretty easy to fly, too. What
makes airplanes different are the squirrely corners of their
envelopes, and the fundamentally fail-unsafe failure mode that comes
from being in the sky, in vehicle that cannot be "pulled over."

And flying will never be the same as driving. It's that third deminsion that
is the issue. And don't think for a second that cars don't have those
squirrely corners of their envelopes. It's just that flying has more hence
the additional training.


But the rest of your statement basically boils down to not wanting
to learn something complex. And that can be further reduced to
instant gratification.

Right! But why must aviation be so complex? It requires a level of
training commensurate with, say, some trades and para-professional
degrees. Should that level of training be the necessary cost of entry?


Some things can only be simplified down so much. Basic flying has been
simplified from 40 required hours to 20. That's pretty damn good and I
really don't see how you could get it any shorter without taking everything
away that makes it worth while to do.



There is a spectrum between instant gratification, and a long, hard
slog uphill. It's not so black and white. People do *learn* to drive.
It doesn't happen instantly, and in fact, if you've watched teenagers
drive recently, I'm sure you realize that it actually takes years to
get really good at it. So people do put in some level of effort.

I just am tired of hearing about how lazy "kids today" are. People
have been muttering about "kids today" forever. Either man has been on
a constant descent to laziness or stupidity, or much more likely, the
notion is absurd. As tempting as it is to go for the first option, the
second is much more likely.

-- dave j

My instant gratification comment isn't aimed only at the kids.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Dave J wrote:
I just am tired of hearing about how lazy "kids today" are. People
have been muttering about "kids today" forever. Either man has been on
a constant descent to laziness or stupidity, or much more likely, the
notion is absurd. As tempting as it is to go for the first option, the
second is much more likely.

-- dave j

My instant gratification comment isn't aimed only at the kids.
It's not a new phenomenon, just more prevalent.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

Some things can only be simplified down so much. Basic flying has been
simplified from 40 required hours to 20. That's pretty damn good and I
really don't see how you could get it any shorter without taking everything
away that makes it worth while to do.

There's a huge amount of red tape that has little to do with actually flying
that gets in the way for all but the most dedicated.