What GA needs

On Sep 11, 8:02 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

You have just hit on the instant gratification problem which might be the
real root cause of the downfall of aviation.

Okay, this is also interesting, but let me take the devil's advocate
positions for a little while.

*Should* it require so much training and time to learn to fly safely?
Exactly what should the "gratification curve" look like? I'll give
you, there's something depressing about people who want to get all the
fun and utility out of something the moment they take it out of the
box. But, learning to fly is a pretty serious investment of time and
effort. Is it reasonable of us to expect the average joe/jane with 101
other priorities to follow this undertaking?

Maybe at least part of the "fault" here is simply that planes have not
gotten better enough? They don't (practically) fly themselves, there
are too many rules to know, the aircraft will "let you" crash it, etc.

I mean, admit it, you sort of like knowing all the FARs (especially
controversial or commonly misinterpreted ones). You dig the tricks
that aerodynamics play on pilots. It's actually cool information!

I bet you that every certificated pilot on this board has at least a
shelf full of aviation books. I've noticed that a good fraction of my
plane books are really all about decision-making. Is that "normal?"
Most drivers don't have a shelf of car books. They don't think too
hard about whether they should drive today.

I dunno. We may have to face facts. Aviation may just be different.
More of an affliction than a sport/hobby.

-- dave j

Dave J wrote:
On Sep 11, 8:02 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

You have just hit on the instant gratification problem which might
be the real root cause of the downfall of aviation.

Okay, this is also interesting, but let me take the devil's advocate
positions for a little while.

*Should* it require so much training and time to learn to fly safely?
Exactly what should the "gratification curve" look like? I'll give
you, there's something depressing about people who want to get all the
fun and utility out of something the moment they take it out of the
box. But, learning to fly is a pretty serious investment of time and
effort. Is it reasonable of us to expect the average joe/jane with 101
other priorities to follow this undertaking?

Maybe at least part of the "fault" here is simply that planes have not
gotten better enough? They don't (practically) fly themselves, there
are too many rules to know, the aircraft will "let you" crash it, etc.

I mean, admit it, you sort of like knowing all the FARs (especially
controversial or commonly misinterpreted ones). You dig the tricks
that aerodynamics play on pilots. It's actually cool information!

I bet you that every certificated pilot on this board has at least a
shelf full of aviation books. I've noticed that a good fraction of my
plane books are really all about decision-making. Is that "normal?"
Most drivers don't have a shelf of car books. They don't think too
hard about whether they should drive today.

I dunno. We may have to face facts. Aviation may just be different.
More of an affliction than a sport/hobby.

-- dave j


They have shortened the time it takes to get a certificate that will let you
do what 90% of the private pilots do by about half. So that is a start.

As far as planes not flying themselves neither do cars. I'll bet you can
take the average driver from today and put him in a car from the 30's and
they won't have to much trouble. Except maybe with the manual transmission.

But the rest of your statement basically boils down to not wanting to learn
something complex. And that can be further reduced to instant gratification.

On Sep 11, 9:59 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

They have shortened the time it takes to get a certificate that will let you
do what 90% of the private pilots do by about half. So that is a start.

Agreed.

As far as planes not flying themselves neither do cars. I'll bet you can
take the average driver from today and put him in a car from the 30's and
they won't have to much trouble. Except maybe with the manual transmission.

Yeah, but cars are easy to drive. Actually, as far as basic
transportation, I think airplanes are pretty easy to fly, too. What
makes airplanes different are the squirrely corners of their
envelopes, and the fundamentally fail-unsafe failure mode that comes
from being in the sky, in vehicle that cannot be "pulled over."

But the rest of your statement basically boils down to not wanting to learn
something complex. And that can be further reduced to instant gratification.

Right! But why must aviation be so complex? It requires a level of
training commensurate with, say, some trades and para-professional
degrees. Should that level of training be the necessary cost of entry?

There is a spectrum between instant gratification, and a long, hard
slog uphill. It's not so black and white. People do *learn* to drive.
It doesn't happen instantly, and in fact, if you've watched teenagers
drive recently, I'm sure you realize that it actually takes years to
get really good at it. So people do put in some level of effort.

I just am tired of hearing about how lazy "kids today" are. People
have been muttering about "kids today" forever. Either man has been on
a constant descent to laziness or stupidity, or much more likely, the
notion is absurd. As tempting as it is to go for the first option, the
second is much more likely.

-- dave j

Dave J wrote:
On Sep 11, 9:59 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:

They have shortened the time it takes to get a certificate that will
let you do what 90% of the private pilots do by about half. So that
is a start.

Agreed.

As far as planes not flying themselves neither do cars. I'll bet you
can take the average driver from today and put him in a car from the
30's and they won't have to much trouble. Except maybe with the
manual transmission.

Yeah, but cars are easy to drive. Actually, as far as basic
transportation, I think airplanes are pretty easy to fly, too. What
makes airplanes different are the squirrely corners of their
envelopes, and the fundamentally fail-unsafe failure mode that comes
from being in the sky, in vehicle that cannot be "pulled over."

And flying will never be the same as driving. It's that third deminsion that
is the issue. And don't think for a second that cars don't have those
squirrely corners of their envelopes. It's just that flying has more hence
the additional training.


But the rest of your statement basically boils down to not wanting
to learn something complex. And that can be further reduced to
instant gratification.

Right! But why must aviation be so complex? It requires a level of
training commensurate with, say, some trades and para-professional
degrees. Should that level of training be the necessary cost of entry?


Some things can only be simplified down so much. Basic flying has been
simplified from 40 required hours to 20. That's pretty damn good and I
really don't see how you could get it any shorter without taking everything
away that makes it worth while to do.



There is a spectrum between instant gratification, and a long, hard
slog uphill. It's not so black and white. People do *learn* to drive.
It doesn't happen instantly, and in fact, if you've watched teenagers
drive recently, I'm sure you realize that it actually takes years to
get really good at it. So people do put in some level of effort.

I just am tired of hearing about how lazy "kids today" are. People
have been muttering about "kids today" forever. Either man has been on
a constant descent to laziness or stupidity, or much more likely, the
notion is absurd. As tempting as it is to go for the first option, the
second is much more likely.

-- dave j

My instant gratification comment isn't aimed only at the kids.

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Dave J wrote:
I just am tired of hearing about how lazy "kids today" are. People
have been muttering about "kids today" forever. Either man has been on
a constant descent to laziness or stupidity, or much more likely, the
notion is absurd. As tempting as it is to go for the first option, the
second is much more likely.

-- dave j

My instant gratification comment isn't aimed only at the kids.
It's not a new phenomenon, just more prevalent.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

Some things can only be simplified down so much. Basic flying has been
simplified from 40 required hours to 20. That's pretty damn good and I
really don't see how you could get it any shorter without taking everything
away that makes it worth while to do.

There's a huge amount of red tape that has little to do with actually flying
that gets in the way for all but the most dedicated.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder writes:

Some things can only be simplified down so much. Basic flying has been
simplified from 40 required hours to 20. That's pretty damn good and I
really don't see how you could get it any shorter without taking everything
away that makes it worth while to do.

There's a huge amount of red tape that has little to do with actually flying
that gets in the way for all but the most dedicated.

Such as?

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

writes:

Such as?

The entire process of obtaining a license, for example, as well as the endless
currency requirements, medical exams, type ratings, and so on.

Mxsmanic wrote:
Gig 601XL Builder writes:

Some things can only be simplified down so much. Basic flying has
been simplified from 40 required hours to 20. That's pretty damn
good and I really don't see how you could get it any shorter without
taking everything away that makes it worth while to do.

There's a huge amount of red tape that has little to do with actually
flying that gets in the way for all but the most dedicated.

How the hell would you know that? You have never taken a lesson in your
life. I have PP-ASEL and R-H ratings and can not think of one single thing
during that training that I would consider useless or red tape.

If you aren't talking about red tape and the training process please feel
free to give me an example.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

How the hell would you know that?

By looking it up. The concept of research is not widely known but it remains
very useful.