What GA needs

On Sep 12, 1:06 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Jeff Dougherty writes:
Eh? All I had to do to get in to flight school was show up with a
check in my hand.

Getting in is just the beginning.

Believe me, I know. After all, I didn't finish. :-) And I did go to
college, where getting in wasn't even the beginning of the work I had
to do.

The third class medical doesn't do much more than make sure you
won't have a heart attack or seizure at 5,000 feet ...

The medicals are excessively restrictive--reminiscent of military
requirements--and archaic, disqualifying some conditions that are generally
harmless while accepting others that can often be dangerous. They are also
unnecessarily repetitive.

We could argue about whether or not certain conditions should be
automatically disqualifying for quite some time. I have a few pet
peeves there myself. However, according to statistics at
http://aviationmedicine.com/articles...e&articleID=19,
only 1.5% of those seeking medical certificates in 1998 (the last year
they had available) were denied one, and that included applicants who
didn't fill out the forms completely or include the appropriate
documentation. When you take those away, there were about 800 denials
out of about 450,000 applications. It doesn't sound like getting a
medical is all that restrictive.

And has been pointed out, if you don't think you can get one, fly as a
sport pilot. It's what I'll probably do.

Red tape is abundant in certification as well, with special procedures just
for having retractable gear, excessive currency requirements, heavy
regulation, and so on.

I'm afraid that I can't really say much to these unless you're more
specific. As far as I know, once you have the PPL you can fly any
single engine landplane without retractable gear or a variable pitch
prop. There are enough gear-up landings each year that some
retractable-gear training certainly seems to be a good idea, and I
don't think anyone would argue that seaplanes and multiengine
airplanes shouldn't have their own training requirements.

Currency requirements? The only requirement for a VFR private pilot
is a checkride once every two years, requiring you to pay for a couple
hours of an instructor's time. It's every six months for IFR, but
only if you haven't logged a certain amount of instrument time. How
could those requirements be profitably reduced without compromising
safety? (Sure, it's more often if you're an ATP, but that doesn't
really apply to recreational GA)

As for "heavy regulation"...well, any amount of regulation can be
claimed to be heavy. Unless you're more specific about which regs you
consider unnecessarily burdensome, I can't really offer
counterpoints.

It's easier to become a lawyer than it is to become a pilot, and in some
respects it's easier to become a doctor as well.

Er. As a current applicant for medical school, I've gone through a
year of premed coursework (after finishing a bio major at a liberal
arts college), followed by a yearlong application process that
involves a lot of paperwork and some not inconsiderable fees to get me
the chance to fly at my own expense somewhere for an interview, after
which the school might or might not admit me. I've definitely spent
more than 90 hours on the application process, and my total bill
probably won't come out to be much less than a PPL once I'm done
interviewing all over creation. (With the amount of flying I need to
do soon, I'll have my multiengine pax rating in no time! ;~) ) It's
taken two years on top of the four I spent in college, a lot of money
and skull sweat...

....and that's just to get *into* medical school. When/if I start,
I'll then do four years worth of intensive coursework, followed by at
least three years of residency pulling 80-100 hour weeks. Followed by
a licensing process that will look at my health at least as closely as
an FAA medical.

(And oh yeah, I'll be paying for it all too, at about $40K a year.
Debt, here I come!)

The above is not a complaint by any means. I can't wait to get in and
start my journey towards being a physician, and I knew what the rules
of the game were when I started the process. But in consideration of
the above, I would be interested to know what part of becoming a
doctor you consider easier than becoming a private pilot.

-JTD

Jeff Dougherty writes:

We could argue about whether or not certain conditions should be
automatically disqualifying for quite some time. I have a few pet
peeves there myself. However, according to statistics at
http://aviationmedicine.com/articles...e&articleID=19,
only 1.5% of those seeking medical certificates in 1998 (the last year
they had available) were denied one, and that included applicants who
didn't fill out the forms completely or include the appropriate
documentation. When you take those away, there were about 800 denials
out of about 450,000 applications. It doesn't sound like getting a
medical is all that restrictive.

That surprises me, since a number of the disqualifying conditions are more
common than 1.5% of the population.

And has been pointed out, if you don't think you can get one, fly as a
sport pilot. It's what I'll probably do.

Sport pilot is so restrictive that I don't think it would be worth the trouble
(at least for me).

I'm afraid that I can't really say much to these unless you're more
specific. As far as I know, once you have the PPL you can fly any
single engine landplane without retractable gear or a variable pitch
prop. There are enough gear-up landings each year that some
retractable-gear training certainly seems to be a good idea, and I
don't think anyone would argue that seaplanes and multiengine
airplanes shouldn't have their own training requirements.

There are lots of things that can make an aircraft more complex to fly, not
just retractable gear. So I'm not sure why retractable gear justifies a
separate restriction if the other stuff doesn't.

Not only that, but I like twin-engine aircraft with retractable gear and all
the other "complex" and "high-performance" stuff.

Currency requirements? The only requirement for a VFR private pilot
is a checkride once every two years, requiring you to pay for a couple
hours of an instructor's time. It's every six months for IFR, but
only if you haven't logged a certain amount of instrument time. How
could those requirements be profitably reduced without compromising
safety?

I don't know. But conversely I'm not sure that they make instrument pilots
safer.

As for "heavy regulation"...well, any amount of regulation can be
claimed to be heavy. Unless you're more specific about which regs you
consider unnecessarily burdensome, I can't really offer
counterpoints.

Compare the length of the FARs (even Part 91 alone) to a typical motor vehicle
code.

Er. As a current applicant for medical school, I've gone through a
year of premed coursework (after finishing a bio major at a liberal
arts college), followed by a yearlong application process that
involves a lot of paperwork and some not inconsiderable fees to get me
the chance to fly at my own expense somewhere for an interview, after
which the school might or might not admit me. I've definitely spent
more than 90 hours on the application process, and my total bill
probably won't come out to be much less than a PPL once I'm done
interviewing all over creation. (With the amount of flying I need to
do soon, I'll have my multiengine pax rating in no time! ;~) ) It's
taken two years on top of the four I spent in college, a lot of money
and skull sweat...

...and that's just to get *into* medical school.

Sure, but a PPL is just to get _into_ flying. You still need other ratings
and certifications, an airplane, an airport, and so on.

When/if I start,
I'll then do four years worth of intensive coursework, followed by at
least three years of residency pulling 80-100 hour weeks. Followed by
a licensing process that will look at my health at least as closely as
an FAA medical.

You can't be a doctor if you're diabetic or an epileptic?

But in consideration of
the above, I would be interested to know what part of becoming a
doctor you consider easier than becoming a private pilot.

If all you want is a PPL, it's easier than becoming a doctor. If you want
something more complex than a PPL, and if you want to actually fly on a
regular basis, the time and expense starts to increase almost exponentially.

In my case, my favorite sim aircraft is a Beechcraft Baron 58. But becoming a
pilot of my own Baron in real life would be hideously time-consuming,
difficult, and expensive. I suppose if I just wanted to fly a Piper Cub,
things might be different, but I don't want to fly a piece of junk, and I'd
want to be instrument rated.

"Mxsmanic" wrote

I suppose if I just wanted to fly a Piper Cub,
things might be different, but I don't want to fly a piece of junk, and
I'd
want to be instrument rated.

Speaking of Piper Cubs, I just got my tailwheel endorsement in one and I've
got to say it's one of the most fun airplanes to fly that I've ever flown.
All of a sudden it's fun to just fly around the pattern doing takeoffs and
landings again at some small grass strip, or just cruising along the
countryside with the door and windows open at 60 mph.

If you don't have your tailwheel endorsement yet and you're looking for
something fun and challenging to do that will definitely improve your
skills, I'd highly recommend doing it, especially if you can do it in
something like a '40s vintage J3. It's alot of fun and it opens up a whole
new world of airplanes to fly.

BDS

On Sep 14, 7:26 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Jeff Dougherty writes:


That surprises me, since a number of the disqualifying conditions are more
common than 1.5% of the population.

Well, it's what the stats say. :-) Now, the population of those
applying for an FAA medical is definitely not the same as the general
population. But I do think that those numbers support the idea that
the current medical regulations are not a serious barrier to entry
into general aviation.

And has been pointed out, if you don't think you can get one, fly as a
sport pilot. It's what I'll probably do.

Sport pilot is so restrictive that I don't think it would be worth the trouble
(at least for me).

Sure. But you're not everybody, and thus far it looks to be pretty
popular. To balance your anecdote with an anecdote, sport pilot
sounds just about perfect for yours truly.

I'm afraid that I can't really say much to these unless you're more
specific. As far as I know, once you have the PPL you can fly any
single engine landplane without retractable gear or a variable pitch
prop. There are enough gear-up landings each year that some
retractable-gear training certainly seems to be a good idea, and I
don't think anyone would argue that seaplanes and multiengine
airplanes shouldn't have their own training requirements.

There are lots of things that can make an aircraft more complex to fly, not
just retractable gear. So I'm not sure why retractable gear justifies a
separate restriction if the other stuff doesn't.
Not only that, but I like twin-engine aircraft with retractable gear and all
the other "complex" and "high-performance" stuff.

Actually, as I see it having these separate endorsements actually
makes it easier to get into aviation. Think about it. If there were
no separate categories for complex aircraft, multiengine, and so on,
then every holder of a PPL would have to be familiar with how to fly
any land plane, no matter how it was configured. That would mean that
a lot of systems that aren't currently part of the basic PPL would
have to be added to the course- managing a variable-pitch prop,
landing gear operations, how to manage a twin (which if nothing else,
certainly changes your approach to single engine out events), and so
forth. This would greatly increase the amount of time needed to earn
the PPL, and thus cost.

But with separate endorsements, that's not necessary. The basic PPL
lets you fly single engined, fixed prop and gear planes- which I would
venture to say are the majority of the GA fleet. Thus, the majority
of pilots who don't want to fly anything else aren't burdened by
training in systems that they're not going to use.

And for that matter, I think I've heard of people taking their PPL in
complex aircraft and getting the endorsement at the same time they got
their license. It's not common, but I believe it's been done.


As for "heavy regulation"...well, any amount of regulation can be
claimed to be heavy. Unless you're more specific about which regs you
consider unnecessarily burdensome, I can't really offer
counterpoints.

Compare the length of the FARs (even Part 91 alone) to a typical motor vehicle
code.

Sure. But something being long is different from it being
unnecessarily long. My college biochemistry textbook was a fairly
massive tome, but considering how much it covered it wasn't one page
longer than it needed to be. The dictionary is long. So is an
encyclopedia. Aviation is a complex subject, and just saying that the
regulations governing it are lengthy isn't the same as saying they're
unnecessarily long.

Now, I'm not defending every jot and title of the FARs. If every rule
in them is really necessary, they'll be the very first set of
government regulations in human history for which that is the case.
But length alone isn't a good criteria here.

Er. As a current applicant for medical school, I've gone through a
year of premed coursework (after finishing a bio major at a liberal
arts college), followed by a yearlong application process that
involves a lot of paperwork and some not inconsiderable fees to get me
the chance to fly at my own expense somewhere for an interview, after
which the school might or might not admit me. I've definitely spent
more than 90 hours on the application process, and my total bill
probably won't come out to be much less than a PPL once I'm done
interviewing all over creation. (With the amount of flying I need to
do soon, I'll have my multiengine pax rating in no time! ;~) ) It's
taken two years on top of the four I spent in college, a lot of money
and skull sweat...

...and that's just to get *into* medical school.

Sure, but a PPL is just to get _into_ flying. You still need other ratings
and certifications, an airplane, an airport, and so on.

When/if I start,
I'll then do four years worth of intensive coursework, followed by at
least three years of residency pulling 80-100 hour weeks. Followed by
a licensing process that will look at my health at least as closely as
an FAA medical.

You can't be a doctor if you're diabetic or an epileptic?

That's actually a good question, and I had to do some searching to get
the exact answer. (This is all based off of the Mass. Medical Board's
rules, if anyone is interested.) There don't seem to be any
conditions that are automatic DQs, but any physical or mental
condition which in the Board's opinion could interfere with the
practice of medicine is grounds for denial of a license to practice.
Short, but it potentially covers a lot of ground.

At any rate, even if we want to say that the physical itself is easier
I think the rest of my point stands.

But in consideration of
the above, I would be interested to know what part of becoming a
doctor you consider easier than becoming a private pilot.

If all you want is a PPL, it's easier than becoming a doctor. If you want
something more complex than a PPL, and if you want to actually fly on a
regular basis, the time and expense starts to increase almost exponentially.

Right. But the thread was talking about GA and people getting a PPL,
and you said upthread that you weren't talking about professional
pilots, but about the problems faced by amateurs. Which are there, no
question, but comparing the amount of time and money required to be a
pilot to the amount required to be a doctor is a little silly. With
five minutes on Google I found a flight school that would take me from
zero time to ATP for what I could end up spending on about a year and
a half worth of medical school, and probably in a lot less time as
well.

In my case, my favorite sim aircraft is a Beechcraft Baron 58. But becoming a
pilot of my own Baron in real life would be hideously time-consuming,
difficult, and expensive. I suppose if I just wanted to fly a Piper Cub,
things might be different, but I don't want to fly a piece of junk, and I'd
want to be instrument rated.

Piper Cub a piece of junk?

Man, where's your sense of beauty? :-)

Seriously, to each his own. But if anyone offered me a chance to get
in an honest-to-Yeager Piper Cub and buzz around, I'd be out the door
so fast you'd never see me going.

Jeff Dougherty writes:

And for that matter, I think I've heard of people taking their PPL in
complex aircraft and getting the endorsement at the same time they got
their license. It's not common, but I believe it's been done.

That's what I'd want to do. Train and get all necessary certifications in the
very aircraft I plan to fly.

That's actually a good question, and I had to do some searching to get
the exact answer. (This is all based off of the Mass. Medical Board's
rules, if anyone is interested.) There don't seem to be any
conditions that are automatic DQs, but any physical or mental
condition which in the Board's opinion could interfere with the
practice of medicine is grounds for denial of a license to practice.
Short, but it potentially covers a lot of ground.

Sounds mostly like certain mental illnesses and contagious diseases. So
lepers and psychotics need not apply. But hypertension, migraines, a single
seizure at the age of 12, or a prescription for an anxiolytic 20 years ago
presumably are not obstacles.

Piper Cub a piece of junk?

I exaggerate for emphasis, but it's a bit too small and primitive for my
tastes.

Man, where's your sense of beauty?

Yellow is just not my color.

Seriously, to each his own. But if anyone offered me a chance to get
in an honest-to-Yeager Piper Cub and buzz around, I'd be out the door
so fast you'd never see me going.

You have a problem with Beechcraft Barons?

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Jeff Dougherty writes:

And for that matter, I think I've heard of people taking their PPL in
complex aircraft and getting the endorsement at the same time they
got their license. It's not common, but I believe it's been done.

That's what I'd want to do. Train and get all necessary
certifications in the very aircraft I plan to fly.

Then you're an even bigger idiot than I previously thought.


That's actually a good question, and I had to do some searching to
get the exact answer. (This is all based off of the Mass. Medical
Board's rules, if anyone is interested.) There don't seem to be any
conditions that are automatic DQs, but any physical or mental
condition which in the Board's opinion could interfere with the
practice of medicine is grounds for denial of a license to practice.
Short, but it potentially covers a lot of ground.

Sounds mostly like certain mental illnesses and contagious diseases.


What, like the one you have?


So lepers and psychotics need not apply. But hypertension, migraines,
a single seizure at the age of 12, or a prescription for an anxiolytic
20 years ago presumably are not obstacles.

Piper Cub a piece of junk?

I exaggerate for emphasis, but it's a bit too small and primitive for
my tastes.

It's not primitive, fjukkwit. And you couldn't handle one.



Man, where's your sense of beauty?

Yellow is just not my color.

Seriously, to each his own. But if anyone offered me a chance to get
in an honest-to-Yeager Piper Cub and buzz around, I'd be out the door
so fast you'd never see me going.

You have a problem with Beechcraft Barons?


I don't, but you couldn't even get one to the end of the runway.


Fjukkwit.

Bertie

"Jeff Dougherty" wrote ...

On Sep 12, 1:06 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
It's easier to become a lawyer than it is to become a pilot, and
in some respects it's easier to become a doctor as well.

Er. As a current applicant for medical school,...

Jeff, welcome to the head banging portion of the Mxsmanic Experience. Every
regular on this group has gone through this "reasoned discussion phase",
gotton dizzy, and fallen down. There's lots of us here to help you up. Nuff
said.

Keep focused on the med school road, but spend a bit of free time (yeah
right,...ha,ha) searching out a flying club in the area around the school.
Go to meetings and announce that you would like share some time and
expenses. You are bound to get some takers and you'll undoubtedly find
yourself on the controls (most PPLs are eager teachers). Good luck.

On Sep 15, 12:45 am, "Mike Isaksen" wrote:
"Jeff Dougherty" wrote ...



On Sep 12, 1:06 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
It's easier to become a lawyer than it is to become a pilot, and
in some respects it's easier to become a doctor as well.

Er. As a current applicant for medical school,...
Keep focused on the med school road, but spend a bit of free time (yeah
right,...ha,ha) searching out a flying club in the area around the school.
Go to meetings and announce that you would like share some time and
expenses. You are bound to get some takers and you'll undoubtedly find
yourself on the controls (most PPLs are eager teachers). Good luck.

We'll see. I don't know if "free time" and "medical school" belong in
the same paragraph, let alone the same sentence...but there's endless
room in this world to improvise, adapt, and overcome. Thanks for the
good wishes.