CNN article on problems in Air Travel, as seen by FAA

(John Kulp) wrote:

"The guys who fly around in private jets" make up about 40 percent of
the air traffic in the Northeast, he said. "One would think it's not just
airlines that would be asked to reduce capacity," he said.

Is this number correct?

Yes, and they don't pay anywhere near their fair share of fees either.

Well that's certainly a matter for debate...

The vast majority of gen av traffic would operate just fine without ATC at all.
With the exception of a few airports that are commercial hubs, and a couple like
Teterboro that attract a bunch of CEO flights.

What drives all those ATC costs are commercial aircraft that a) all want to land
at the same time, and b) have cockpit equipment that was designed 40 years ago,
thus they have to have ATC around.

Most GA aircraft have modern cockpits fully capable of detecting traffic
conflicts, rerouting for weather and operate out of airports that are lucky to
see more than a couple of dozen flights a day.

This is really an argument over who created the problem and who gets to pay to
solve it. GA didn't create the problem and shouldn't be force to bail the
airlines or the government out.

--
"Tell me what I should do, Annie."
"Stay. Here. Forever." - Life On Mars

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:23:10 -0600, Rick Blaine
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote:

"The guys who fly around in private jets" make up about 40 percent of
the air traffic in the Northeast, he said. "One would think it's not just
airlines that would be asked to reduce capacity," he said.

Is this number correct?

Yes, and they don't pay anywhere near their fair share of fees either.

Well that's certainly a matter for debate...

The vast majority of gen av traffic would operate just fine without ATC at all.
With the exception of a few airports that are commercial hubs, and a couple like
Teterboro that attract a bunch of CEO flights.


Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground control,
or departure control.

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:23:10 -0600, Rick Blaine
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote:

"The guys who fly around in private jets" make up about 40 percent
of the air traffic in the Northeast, he said. "One would think
it's not just airlines that would be asked to reduce capacity," he
said.

Is this number correct?

Yes, and they don't pay anywhere near their fair share of fees
either.

Well that's certainly a matter for debate...

The vast majority of gen av traffic would operate just fine without
ATC at all. With the exception of a few airports that are commercial
hubs, and a couple like Teterboro that attract a bunch of CEO flights.


Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground control,
or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United States.
Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and many of those
who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or ground
controllers. No ground control.

Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground control,
or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United States.
Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and many of those
who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or ground
controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.


Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the infrastructure
is there because of the airlines and their passengers. All those little
airplanes and even the CEO jets that are flying around can and do function
quite well without much less.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:50:43 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the infrastructure
is there because of the airlines and their passengers. All those little
airplanes and even the CEO jets that are flying around can and do function
quite well without much less.



Well, the issue as I understand it is user fees, not fuel tax. The
argument is that GA doesn't pay these and all the airline passengers
do. Is that not the case?

John Kulp wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:50:43 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying almost
all the freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the
infrastructure is there because of the airlines and their
passengers. All those little airplanes and even the CEO jets that
are flying around can and do function quite well without much less.



Well, the issue as I understand it is user fees, not fuel tax. The
argument is that GA doesn't pay these and all the airline passengers
do. Is that not the case?

The airlines pay a lesser fuel tax and per segment tax. GA doesn't pay a per
segment tax but this is made up for with a higher per gal fuel tax.

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or
ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports. It
is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to 8:14 PM
every day. It is the airlines.


Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This whole
fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market so the
premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:36:41 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or
ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports. It
is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to 8:14 PM
every day. It is the airlines.

Sure that's true alright. I was just commenting on where ATC is
located, that's all.



Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This whole
fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market so the
premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

Where does this come from? This has already happened and the majors
are selling plenty of business and first seats anyway. I don't see
them panicking, just adjusting to changing market conditions,

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:36:41 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local
or ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports
that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports.
It is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to
8:14 PM every day. It is the airlines.

Sure that's true alright. I was just commenting on where ATC is
located, that's all.



Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once
at sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying almost
all the freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional
jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This
whole fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market
so the premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

Where does this come from? This has already happened and the majors
are selling plenty of business and first seats anyway. I don't see
them panicking, just adjusting to changing market conditions,


Fractional jets are here and they are starting to siphon some business
away from the airlines. The VLJ's aren't here yet. The projections for
the VLJ market, if correct, will put a severe dent in the airline's premium
passenger traffic. Take a trip of say 1,000 miles or so. You can go to
your nearby local airport and get a VLJ to fly direct to a nearby local
airport at your destination. No requirement to be at the airport 2 hours
before departure, no restrictions on liquids in your carry-on baggage, no
TSA, no long drive to/from the airport served by the major, no dealing with
connections at the hub, and the VLJ air taxi comes/goes on your schedule,
not the airline's. The airlines can't do any of this and that's why they
are terrified. The only way they can compete is to make it prohibatively
expensive to fly on a VLJ.

Look at an area like White Plains, NY with all the corporate HQs
there. How many of the business / first class passengers would rather go
to HPN and fly directly to their destination vs. having to drive to LGA,
JFK, or EWR? Only the top executives get the company jet, the others need
to go via airlines. If they had VLJ service at a cost of a first class
ticket, would they bother to go via the major?

How many first or business class tickets are really sold? I've been
on flights where the first class cabin was full but most passengers were
there on a mileage or frequent flyer upgrades. Those passengers who did
pay full fare would be more than happy to fly on a VLJ and avoid the
airline hassle completly, and those are the passengers the airlines are
worried about.

I know one person who always flies first class and he said he would
gladly pay 20% more for the convenience of a VLJ. And he even dislikes
small airplanes! The airlines can't compete with the VLJ. They know it.
So they need a way to escalate the costs for the VLJ so high that people
will not go to it, and the fee system is their solution.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)