CNN article on problems in Air Travel, as seen by FAA

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground control,
or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United States.
Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and many of those
who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or ground
controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.


Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the infrastructure
is there because of the airlines and their passengers. All those little
airplanes and even the CEO jets that are flying around can and do function
quite well without much less.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:50:43 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the infrastructure
is there because of the airlines and their passengers. All those little
airplanes and even the CEO jets that are flying around can and do function
quite well without much less.



Well, the issue as I understand it is user fees, not fuel tax. The
argument is that GA doesn't pay these and all the airline passengers
do. Is that not the case?

John Kulp wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:50:43 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying almost
all the freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the
infrastructure is there because of the airlines and their
passengers. All those little airplanes and even the CEO jets that
are flying around can and do function quite well without much less.



Well, the issue as I understand it is user fees, not fuel tax. The
argument is that GA doesn't pay these and all the airline passengers
do. Is that not the case?

The airlines pay a lesser fuel tax and per segment tax. GA doesn't pay a per
segment tax but this is made up for with a higher per gal fuel tax.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:28:25 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:50:43 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying almost
all the freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the
infrastructure is there because of the airlines and their
passengers. All those little airplanes and even the CEO jets that
are flying around can and do function quite well without much less.



Well, the issue as I understand it is user fees, not fuel tax. The
argument is that GA doesn't pay these and all the airline passengers
do. Is that not the case?

The airlines pay a lesser fuel tax and per segment tax. GA doesn't pay a per
segment tax but this is made up for with a higher per gal fuel tax.



Nothing confusing about all this is there?

John Kulp wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:28:25 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:50:43 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying
almost all the freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the
infrastructure is there because of the airlines and their
passengers. All those little airplanes and even the CEO jets that
are flying around can and do function quite well without much less.



Well, the issue as I understand it is user fees, not fuel tax. The
argument is that GA doesn't pay these and all the airline passengers
do. Is that not the case?

The airlines pay a lesser fuel tax and per segment tax. GA doesn't
pay a per segment tax but this is made up for with a higher per gal
fuel tax.



Nothing confusing about all this is there?

No not really. It has worked for YEARS. It allows the airlines to pass on a
cost directly to their passengers without a whole lot of trouble because it
is a /pax tax.

If you think that is confusing take a look at the plans for GA user fees and
try to imagine how that tax would be collected.

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:07:35 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:28:25 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:50:43 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:

John Kulp wrote:

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying
almost all the freight then?

They are paying for the services they are using. Most of the
infrastructure is there because of the airlines and their
passengers. All those little airplanes and even the CEO jets that
are flying around can and do function quite well without much less.



Well, the issue as I understand it is user fees, not fuel tax. The
argument is that GA doesn't pay these and all the airline passengers
do. Is that not the case?

The airlines pay a lesser fuel tax and per segment tax. GA doesn't
pay a per segment tax but this is made up for with a higher per gal
fuel tax.



Nothing confusing about all this is there?

No not really. It has worked for YEARS. It allows the airlines to pass on a
cost directly to their passengers without a whole lot of trouble because it
is a /pax tax.

It is if you're not used to it.


If you think that is confusing take a look at the plans for GA user fees and
try to imagine how that tax would be collected.



If the government could collect the taxes they have now, they wouldn't
need to have more

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or
ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports. It
is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to 8:14 PM
every day. It is the airlines.


Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This whole
fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market so the
premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:36:41 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local or
ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports. It
is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to 8:14 PM
every day. It is the airlines.

Sure that's true alright. I was just commenting on where ATC is
located, that's all.



Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once at
sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft. But
then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why, exactly,
are the majors talking about their customers paying almost all the
freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This whole
fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market so the
premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

Where does this come from? This has already happened and the majors
are selling plenty of business and first seats anyway. I don't see
them panicking, just adjusting to changing market conditions,

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:36:41 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:

(John Kulp) wrote in
:

On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:30:32 GMT, Marty Shapiro
wrote:



Apparently, you have never heard of approach control, ground
control, or departure control.


Have heard of them and even use them at times. Unless you
are IFR,
they are NOT needed at a vast majority of airports in the United
States. Most airports in the U.S. do not have a control tower, and
many of those who do do not have a 24 hour control tower. No local
or ground controllers. No ground control.

These aren't the airports that have much traffic or are the problem.
Those are major airports, which do have ATC.

And it is because of the AIRLINE traffic at those airports
that ATC is
needed there. GA is less than 5% of the operations at these airports.
It is not GA that wants to have 59 operations at ORD from 8 PM to
8:14 PM every day. It is the airlines.

Sure that's true alright. I was just commenting on where ATC is
located, that's all.



Even IFR, unless you are in the area of major airports, you
may very
well not have TRACON, ground, or local control. You take off with a
clearance void time obtained from an RCO or relayed by FSS and once
at sufficient altitude talk directly to the ARTCC for your location.

Perhaps. It's been a loooong time since I was piloting aircraft.
But then, what are the fees being talked about for exactly? Why,
exactly, are the majors talking about their customers paying almost
all the freight then?

Because the majors are in a panic over the VLJ and fractional
jets.
The potential of the VLJ to siphon off the first & business class
customers, which is where the profit is, terrifies the majors. This
whole fee talk is about how to price these flights out of the market
so the premium customers will continue to fly with the airlines.

Where does this come from? This has already happened and the majors
are selling plenty of business and first seats anyway. I don't see
them panicking, just adjusting to changing market conditions,


Fractional jets are here and they are starting to siphon some business
away from the airlines. The VLJ's aren't here yet. The projections for
the VLJ market, if correct, will put a severe dent in the airline's premium
passenger traffic. Take a trip of say 1,000 miles or so. You can go to
your nearby local airport and get a VLJ to fly direct to a nearby local
airport at your destination. No requirement to be at the airport 2 hours
before departure, no restrictions on liquids in your carry-on baggage, no
TSA, no long drive to/from the airport served by the major, no dealing with
connections at the hub, and the VLJ air taxi comes/goes on your schedule,
not the airline's. The airlines can't do any of this and that's why they
are terrified. The only way they can compete is to make it prohibatively
expensive to fly on a VLJ.

Look at an area like White Plains, NY with all the corporate HQs
there. How many of the business / first class passengers would rather go
to HPN and fly directly to their destination vs. having to drive to LGA,
JFK, or EWR? Only the top executives get the company jet, the others need
to go via airlines. If they had VLJ service at a cost of a first class
ticket, would they bother to go via the major?

How many first or business class tickets are really sold? I've been
on flights where the first class cabin was full but most passengers were
there on a mileage or frequent flyer upgrades. Those passengers who did
pay full fare would be more than happy to fly on a VLJ and avoid the
airline hassle completly, and those are the passengers the airlines are
worried about.

I know one person who always flies first class and he said he would
gladly pay 20% more for the convenience of a VLJ. And he even dislikes
small airplanes! The airlines can't compete with the VLJ. They know it.
So they need a way to escalate the costs for the VLJ so high that people
will not go to it, and the fee system is their solution.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)