Embedded

From: Chad Irby cir

(ArtKramr) wrote:

We have men dying every day. Is it worth it?

We have hundreds of innocent Iraqi civilians *not* dying every day, and
a large number of fairly monstrous assholes who are really, most
sincerely dead.

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy embraced by the isolationist left and locked onto by the news
media. "Another GI dies in attack by Iraqi guerillas" is the lead (following
the mode of the latter Vietnam war) , not "Six enemy die-hards killed in
firefight. One of our servicemen also perished." (the WW2 style of reporting).

That argument essentially urges us to cut and run. If we keep doing that,
especially after we kick ass militarily, we might as well simply abolish our
armed forces, replace the Pentagon with an answering machine saying, "To whom
it may concern: Yes, we really are very, very bad. Everything is our fault.
We surrender and throw ourselves upon your mercy, but don't be too kind to us,
because we deserve to be punished."



Chris Mark

Subject: Embedded
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 10/5/03 10:41 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 20031005134124.25523.00000317@

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy

Unless it is you who are going to die.


That argument essentially urges us to cut and run.

Nobody said cut and run. That is your interpretation alone.

To whom
it may concern: Yes, we really are very, very bad. Everything is our fault.
We surrender and throw ourselves upon your mercy, but don't be too kind to
us,
because we deserve to be punished."

All in your mind. Nobody elses. You just made it all up. The alternative to
thoughtful discussion is not surrender. No one ever said what you just accused
them of saying. Or anything close.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

From: ost (Chris Mark)

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy

Unless it is you who are going to die.

Then don't volunteer for military service.

And don't get a job as a tuna fisherman, which is more dangerous than
being a member of the US military in Iraq...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

From:

The "men dying every day, is it worth it" mantra is the fraidy cat school of
foreign policy

Unless it is you who are going to die.

Well, my grandson served in the 3rd on the charge up. We didn't hear from him
from Feb. 25 until almost the end of May. One of my strongest impressions of
the war was the brief footage of that trooper curled up asleep beside his
vehicle while a sandstorm raged. I was very concerned at the time about how
extended the drive seemed to be and the possibility of a major counter-attack
by the enemy cutting them off (groundless concerns as it turned out). I was
influenced in my thinking by my time assigned to the 3rd in Korea in 1950 with
a TACP. When we went into to the Wonsan area we were told not to worry, just
some final mopping up operations, the NKs were all done, although they still
had some fight in them. Those "mopping up" operations were inflicting hundreds
of casualties on the troops. But that was nothing compared to what happened
when the Chinese poured in and the 3rd began a fighting retreat centered on
Hungnam, which it held with the help of round-the-clock artillery, naval and
air support, and the magnificent cussed stubborness of the dogfaces, who just
refused to be defeated, allowing the largest amphibious evacuation in US
history, getting out more than 100,000 troops, 100,000 civilians, almost 20,000
vehicles and 350,000 tons of equipment and supplies--all the while under
ferocious assault from the Chicoms, amid some of the most bitter cold
imaginable. It was the most memorable and miserable six weeks of my life. I
have rarely had a nightmare about WW2 but I have frequently woken up pouring
sweat, heart pounding, mind totally lost in another reality, from a dream about
Hungnam.
My son-in-law is the battalion commander of a Guard unit that was activated not
long ago, his son--my grandson--serves under him. They are both now in Iraq
working to help establish Iraqi law-enforcement and suppress criminal activity.
We do worry about them.
How about you? Any fruit of your loins participatants in the current dust-up?


Chris Mark

How about you? Any fruit of your loins participatants in the current
dust-up?


Chris Mark

I got one grandson ready to go. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well, my grandson served in the 3rd on the charge up. We didn't hear from him
from Feb. 25 until almost the end of May. One of my strongest impressions of

I'm glad he got through it, and I hope he comes safely home.

influenced in my thinking by my time assigned to the 3rd in Korea in 1950 with
a TACP. When we went into to the Wonsan area we were told not to worry, just
some final mopping up operations, the NKs were all done, although they still
had some fight in them. Those "mopping up" operations were inflicting hundreds
of casualties on the troops. But that was nothing compared to what happened
when the Chinese poured in and the 3rd began a fighting retreat centered on

Well, I doubt Syria or Iran can or would be willing to back up Saddam
as China backed up North Korea.

A friend of mine served with the British army in Korea and used to
tell stories about the Americans' dislike of personal combat--using
artillery instead of sending out a patrol, etc. But when you read of
the campaigns in WWII and Korea, what's astonishing is the williness
to take huge casualties. Units routinely lost 10 percent of their
strength in 48 hours--that sort of thing.

I suppose it was Vietnam that changed that, as it changed so many
things.

It is always good to hear from you, Chris. Your posts are a pillar of
sanity on this newsgroup. I especially appreciated learning a bit more
of your personal history.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

From: Cub Driver look@m

A friend of mine served with the British army in Korea and used to
tell stories about the Americans' dislike of personal combat--using
artillery instead of sending out a patrol,

That's the American way of war: Fire kills.

But when you read of
the campaigns in WWII and Korea, what's astonishing is the williness
to take huge casualties. Units routinely lost 10 percent of their
strength in 48 hours--that sort of thing.

Yes. It makes you puzzle over why, today, a handful of casualties so small
they wouldn't have even been enumerated--only listed as "light"--causes such
national upset.

I suppose it was Vietnam that changed that, as it changed so many
things.

I suppose so, too. That was the great watershed, in so many ways. It wasn't
WW2 or Korea that really changed the character of the country. It was Vietnam.
Just like there was America before and after the Civil War, so is there
America before and after Vietnam.

It is always good to hear from you, Chris. Your posts are a pillar of
sanity on this newsgroup.

Most kind of you to say so. Right back at you.

On the subject of Hangnam, it is pretty much a forgotten episode. The Marines
battle at Chosin is rightly remembered, as they went through the Chicoms like
Caesar through Gaul. (Wasn't that where Chesty Puller said, "They've got us
surrounded--they won't get away this time!) But the Army was there, too (and
the Air Force!). A few memories stand out for me. One was, having driven our
jeep up to a high point to get better radio reception, one of the boys looked
around at the scene and said, "Well, I wouldn't have believed it, but it's
true--hell can freeze over." (I think that was actually a pretty common line
during the Korean War, but it was the first time I had heard it.) And another
one was a casual comment I heard, one dogface saying to another, "What the hell
are you bitching about? You're getting paid $2.60 a day ain't you?"

Don Chase, 1/15/3, penned some pretty decent poems about the Wonsan-Hangnam
episode. A sample:

"Fallen Comrades"

No matter what I'm doing, or where my steps may roam,
I think about my comrades who never came back home.
Many years have passed, but my memory hasn't dimmed;
A picture of those men, still clings and lies within.

I see their unlined faces, which never did grow old;
The shy, timid, withdrawn ones, and also those so bold.
Still hear their youthful banter, brightening many dreary days,
Keeping all their fear Inside, each one in different ways.

Yet all did their duty, as good soldiers do so well,
Existing under conditions, that offtimes were sheer hell.
I remember all the sharing, both rations and packages from wives;
This generousness of spirit, always kept so much alive.

All of this stays with me, ever turning in my mind,
Faces drifting pass my eyes, from another place and time.
So many times I've wondered, why them instead of me?
Maybe in some future world, I'll be allowed to see.

****

Excerpt from a longer poem, "Ballad of a Retreat"

They had us all surrounded,
I could hear them scream and yell,
My feelings at that moment,
No tongue could ever tell.
I saw the bursting mortar shells,
And the bullets around me flew,
As all my strength had left me,
And all my courage too.

With the breaking of the morning,
Just before the dawn,
I heard the sounding bugles,
And the big attack was on.
The cotton quilted uniforms
Against our bullet spree,
The screaming yelling banzai,
They called the human sea.

Baby faces bearded,
And chapped with hardenin'mud,
Parkas that were dirty,
And stained with frozen blood.
Here a bunch of youngsters,
Who fought on till the end,
In the battle without an end,
Where boys were changed to men.

Twelve long miles of convoy,
Headed for the sea,
Roadblocks at every turning,
Down to the frozen sea.
The frost bite and the wounded,
With their dead and dying too,
No matter what the objective be,
These boys were going through,
The Captain he informed us.

Perhaps he thought it right,
That before we reach the river, boys,
We're going to have a fight.
We're going out like Americans,
In an organized withdrawal,
And no matter what the rumors say,
It's no retreat at all.

We fought at least nine hours,
Before the strife was o'er
And the like of dead and wounded,
I've never seen before.
But the everlasting promise,
Kept along each bloody yard,
No one leaves behind the wounded,
'Cause there ain't no fight that hard.

The chaplain collected dog tags,
In his hands were quite a few,
There was Captain Smith's, McCloskie's,
And Corporal Bryan's too.
And before we reached the river,
And fought our way back through,
The sergeant had the dog tags,
And he had the chaplain's too....
.....

If I made you pause one moment,
And take a little time,
Then I know it wasn't just in vain,
That I put these words to rhyme.
For there're just too many people,
Who take this all in stride,
Who hear these tales of battles,
Then cast it all aside...


Chris Mark

The Marines battle at Chosin is rightly remembered, as they went through the Chicoms like
Caesar through Gaul. (Wasn't that where Chesty Puller said, "They've got us
surrounded--they won't get away this time!) But the Army was there, too

According to _Breakout_ by Martin Russ, the Army units up north were
so inept they were a burden on the marines, rather than help. They had
to be rescued by the marines as the latter fought their way out.

The Army's performance was so bad the U.S. Congress conducted an
investigation to determine what went wrong and why.

vince norris

From: vincent p. norris

According to _Breakout_ by Martin Russ, the Army units up north were
so inept they were a burden on the marines, rather than help.

The only things the Marines did at Hungnam was march through the perimeter held
by the 3rd ID, board ships and leave. Next to be evacuated were the ROK troops.
Remnants of the 7th ID which was strung out in a rapid advance when the
Chicoms hit and was badly mauled, left next. Then 100,000 civilian refugees
which streamed into the city were evacuated. The 3rd which had been dealing
with the NK in the Wonsan area and had made a fighting retreat to Hungnam,
secured and held the perimeter, some 7 miles deep, throughout the entire
evacuation. 3ID troops were the last off the beach. The 1st Marine division
played no role at Hungnam other than evacuating from there.
As far as the situation when the Chinese attacked, it was worth a congressional
investigation to find out just what happened. Remember than Gen. MacArthur
had pushed 8th Army's Gen. Walker to advance faster and threatened to remove
him if he didn't. X Corps MG Edward Almond was aware of that and pushed his
units to move forward on the double. The 7th ID, NNW of the lst Marines, did
as ordered. The Marines' Gen Oliver Smith moved forward very slowly, so slowly
that Almond chided him repeatedly. One reason Smith was so cautious is that
the Marines had run into Chicoms in the first week of Nov.--when no chinese
were thought or anticipated to be in Korea. Had the 7th ID had a similar
encounter, they might have slowed and been better prepared to resist the hit of
some 300,000 Chicoms. Smith himself said that if his division had been
dispersed like 7ID it would have been wiped out. As it was, he was able to
command a compact legion that scythed through the Chicoms and reached a port of
evacuation held by a US Army Division, the Third, which had had to fight its
way there itself--with nary a marine to be found.
The 3rd, which nominally a full division, was understrength by an incredible
8,500 men when it was sent to assist in "mop up" operations of North Korean
troops around Wonsan. The shortage at the time wasn't considered a bid deal
because major combat was assumed to be over.
This mopping up cost hundreds of casualties, but was considered "light" by the
standards of the day. But by Dec.1, when the 3rd was ordered to secure
Hungnam, the Chicoms had infiltrated troops into the area and cut the rail
lines and placed roadblocks along the road routes. The 3rd fought its way
through all of these, made it to Hungnam, and secured it. No Marines had to
rescue them.
A month after leaving Hungnam the 3rd was back in action in brutal fighting to
secure bridgeheads over the Han river and was in fierce fighting beyond the
Han. During a massive Chinese counterattack during the last week of April 1951
iirc about a half dozen CMHs went to 3ID soldiers. Then they went into the
original "Iron Triangle" (before the one in Vietnam). And on through the war.
I would not consider myself an expert on the Korean War, but Russ's comments do
seem to be out of line.


Chris Mark

The Army's performance was so bad the U.S. Congress conducted an
investigation to determine what went wrong and why.

It also affected the U.S. Army for years afterward! I went through
basic training in the winter of 1956, and of course the cadre were all
veterans of Korea. They were intensely aware of how badly the troops
were trained for that conflict (as I recall, the army set up training
centers behind the lines, so as to knock some skills into the men who
were sent over), and they were determined that it wouldn't happen on
their watch. They ran us ragged.

I believe that even the system of putting every recruit through "first
eight" of infantry basic was the result of the Korean experience.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com