Going for my Multiengine rating

Be careful with using the electric trim to flare. Assuming
that the airplane is properly loaded with the CG within the
range, the elevator forces required between an approach
speed of 1.3 Vso and the flare should be slight. Do a W&B
for your landing configuration, be sure to check for an
items stowed in a forward baggage area and for fuel.

The problem that WILL happen is at some point you will gave
to go-around, that means you will need a hand on the power
and you will REALLY need two hands on the elevator because
the electric trim isn't fast enough, you will have a sudden
need to hold the nose down, will loose A/S, perhaps even
stall, then the real bad thing can happen, en engine
failure, Vmc and spin at 100 AGL.

Do some exercise with weights, it is safer.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Michelle P"
wrote in message ...
| Kobra wrote:
| Flyers,
|
| For absolutely no reason, except that I want it, I have
been taking
| Multiengine lessons (including Multi-Instrument and
Commercial). The flight
| school has a Piper Seneca I (PA34-200) circa 1973.
|
| It fly's like a flying Bulldozer on Codeine (sp?). It's
a beast...really.
| The controls are so stiff my left wrist and both knees
ache after a one hour
| lesson. Is this normal for a Seneca or any twin? Are
there docile twins
| out there?
|
| During pre-flight when I have to check the control
surfaces for free
| movement, the ailerons feel like the hinges are rusted
solid and it's like
| lifting a fifty pound weight when try and move the
stabilator. I always
| hesitate to declare them "free".
|
| I have to use two hands to flare and there's a fine,
very fine line between
| a nose landing and a balloon. Some where in the middle
of this micron sized
| line is a good landing flare.
|
| Any thoughts would be appreciated.
|
| BTW if anyone is interested in the Sporty's DVD - So You
Want to Fly Twins.
| I have it on eBay:
|
| http://tinyurl.com/36mp5y
|
| Kobra
| (apologizing for the cross post)
|
|
| Congrats. Flaring: if the plane has electric trim use it.
I fly a twin
| that weights 4800 lbs when I land without the trim I have
to use two
| hands to flare....
|
| Michelle

Jim Macklin wrote:
Be careful with using the electric trim to flare. Assuming
that the airplane is properly loaded with the CG within the
range, the elevator forces required between an approach
speed of 1.3 Vso and the flare should be slight. Do a W&B
for your landing configuration, be sure to check for an
items stowed in a forward baggage area and for fuel.

The problem that WILL happen is at some point you will gave
to go-around, that means you will need a hand on the power
and you will REALLY need two hands on the elevator because
the electric trim isn't fast enough, you will have a sudden
need to hold the nose down, will loose A/S, perhaps even
stall, then the real bad thing can happen, en engine
failure, Vmc and spin at 100 AGL.

Do some exercise with weights, it is safer.

there are some planes that are just nose heavy.

There are some airplanes that are easy to load outside the
flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are designed to
carry passengers and baggage. With only the front seats
occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential.

You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces
allowed.

I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine aircraft
and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper Aztecs,
Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 and 300.
Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life can
depend on your being able to push and pull the controls to
the limit with one leg or one hand.



"Michelle P"
wrote in message ...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| Be careful with using the electric trim to flare.
Assuming
| that the airplane is properly loaded with the CG within
the
| range, the elevator forces required between an approach
| speed of 1.3 Vso and the flare should be slight. Do a
W&B
| for your landing configuration, be sure to check for an
| items stowed in a forward baggage area and for fuel.
|
| The problem that WILL happen is at some point you will
gave
| to go-around, that means you will need a hand on the
power
| and you will REALLY need two hands on the elevator
because
| the electric trim isn't fast enough, you will have a
sudden
| need to hold the nose down, will loose A/S, perhaps even
| stall, then the real bad thing can happen, en engine
| failure, Vmc and spin at 100 AGL.
|
| Do some exercise with weights, it is safer.
|
| there are some planes that are just nose heavy.

Jim Macklin wrote:
There are some airplanes that are easy to load outside the
flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are designed to
carry passengers and baggage. With only the front seats
occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential.

You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces
allowed.

I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine aircraft
and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper Aztecs,
Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 and 300.
Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life can
depend on your being able to push and pull the controls to
the limit with one leg or one hand.

I bow to your godliness..almighty one.
Michelle

Live long and prosper. There are a number of NTSB reports
that involve female pilots involved in fatal accidents in
various makes and models. Often these involve Vmc
demonstrations and other operations such as engine out
go-around [not required in light twins, but a required
maneuver in transport category/jets.]


"Michelle P"
wrote in message ...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| There are some airplanes that are easy to load outside
the
| flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are
designed to
| carry passengers and baggage. With only the front seats
| occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential.
|
| You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces
| allowed.
|
| I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine
aircraft
| and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper Aztecs,
| Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 and
300.
| Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life can
| depend on your being able to push and pull the controls
to
| the limit with one leg or one hand.
|
| I bow to your godliness..almighty one.
| Michelle

I'm not sure what gender has to do with it. I know that my daugher, who is a
competion horse rider can toss hay bales around a whole lot better than I
can. and i can flare and land a nose heavy A36 just fine.


"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
...
Live long and prosper. There are a number of NTSB reports
that involve female pilots involved in fatal accidents in
various makes and models. Often these involve Vmc
demonstrations and other operations such as engine out
go-around [not required in light twins, but a required
maneuver in transport category/jets.]


"Michelle P"
wrote in message ...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| There are some airplanes that are easy to load outside
the
| flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are
designed to
| carry passengers and baggage. With only the front seats
| occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential.
|
| You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces
| allowed.
|
| I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine
aircraft
| and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper Aztecs,
| Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200 and
300.
| Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life can
| depend on your being able to push and pull the controls
to
| the limit with one leg or one hand.
|
| I bow to your godliness..almighty one.
| Michelle

Gender has nothing that must cause the problem, but a 102
pound female has to work harder to push the 150 pounds on
the rudder pedal that is what is required to match the Vmc
numbers, or to pull or push the elevator when the trim is
run-away or just miss-set. And the typical two place
trainer has a narrow CH envelope and most multiengine
airplanes have a wide CG range, when only the front seats
are occupied, elevator forces will be greater.

Lots of farms girls and city raised girls who get into
horses, learn very quickly that a 70# hay bale can be moved,
with effort. Then they learn that the exercise makes them
stronger and the bales seem easier to move.

I was just telling the young lady, that using the trim for
the flare, below 1.3 Vso may get her killed and it won't
increase her upper body strength.

There are males with low strength and there are females with
high strength. But the aerodynamic facts are gender
neutral, if you trim right down to stall speed and have to
do a go-around, you are asking to die if you don't have the
strength.

There is a maneuver that can be done safely at altitude in
most airplanes, a trim stall.



"john hawkins" wrote in message
et...
| I'm not sure what gender has to do with it. I know that my
daugher, who is a
| competion horse rider can toss hay bales around a whole
lot better than I
| can. and i can flare and land a nose heavy A36 just fine.
|
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| ...
| Live long and prosper. There are a number of NTSB
reports
| that involve female pilots involved in fatal accidents
in
| various makes and models. Often these involve Vmc
| demonstrations and other operations such as engine out
| go-around [not required in light twins, but a required
| maneuver in transport category/jets.]
|
|
| "Michelle P"
| wrote in message
...
| | Jim Macklin wrote:
| | There are some airplanes that are easy to load
outside
| the
| | flight envelope. Many multiengine airplanes are
| designed to
| | carry passengers and baggage. With only the front
seats
| | occupied, some ballast in the rear can be essential.
| |
| | You should read some FAR 23 on flight control forces
| | allowed.
| |
| | I have a few thousand hours teaching in multiengine
| aircraft
| | and just flying charter and delivery, from Piper
Aztecs,
| | Beech Duchess and Barons, Dukes, King Ai r 90, 200
and
| 300.
| | Jet time is in the Beechjet 400, trust me, your life
can
| | depend on your being able to push and pull the
controls
| to
| | the limit with one leg or one hand.
| |
| | I bow to your godliness..almighty one.
| | Michelle
|
|
|
|

My Seneca is. So I don't use full flaps unless there is some aft weight.
Without anything in the back, the cg is almost at the front limit. Just
"two notches". To flare nice with full flaps invites a tail stall. Very
common and I was taught, that is why there is the abundance of nose gear
collapses in the type. Because the pounding the nose gear is given.
Rolling in nose up trim makes things easier. It is just done when over
the numbers, entering a flare.

John

Michelle P wrote:

Jim Macklin wrote:

Be careful with using the electric trim to flare. Assuming
that the airplane is properly loaded with the CG within the
range, the elevator forces required between an approach
speed of 1.3 Vso and the flare should be slight. Do a W&B
for your landing configuration, be sure to check for an
items stowed in a forward baggage area and for fuel.

The problem that WILL happen is at some point you will gave
to go-around, that means you will need a hand on the power
and you will REALLY need two hands on the elevator because
the electric trim isn't fast enough, you will have a sudden
need to hold the nose down, will loose A/S, perhaps even
stall, then the real bad thing can happen, en engine
failure, Vmc and spin at 100 AGL.

Do some exercise with weights, it is safer.

there are some planes that are just nose heavy.

The Visitor wrote:

To flare nice with full flaps invites a tail stall.

Not likely. You will lose elevator authority, but the AOA gets
smaller as the tail moves down.

why there is the abundance of nose gear collapses in the type.

Actually, there is an AD out on the Seneca nose gear. The collapses
are generally due to misrigging of the airplane. Friend of mine has a
nosewheel collapse after a full stall, nose high landing.

No, and with full flaps it pull an greater aoa for the same
authority(down force). It stalls. And the nose can drop real hard. As
the stab moves into ground effect the aoa increases also. The Cessna
Cardinal had this problem, which later got addressed with slots in the
stabilator.

Greg Esres wrote:
The Visitor wrote:

To flare nice with full flaps invites a tail stall.

Not likely. You will lose elevator authority, but the AOA gets
smaller as the tail moves down.





why there is the abundance of nose gear collapses in the type.

Actually, there is an AD out on the Seneca nose gear. The collapses
are generally due to misrigging of the airplane. Friend of mine has a
nosewheel collapse after a full stall, nose high landing.



Generally? I'm sorry about your friend and a misrigged gear on anything
is a hazard. And the pa34 nose gear (like any) can be mis-rigged.But the
seneca nose gears take a pounding because of the way they are flown. It
leads to failures.

John