Embedded

Cub Driver wrote:

I was particularly struck by the cover of Time magazine, in which Bush
makes a second appearance in his aircraft carrier walk-on, but this
time hadlined: NO, IT'S NOT OVER, or words to that effect. Time can
trust to the short memory of its readers, that what the man said was
something entirely different: major combat operations are over, which
they most certainly were and are. That cover could have been a paid ad
by the Dean campaign! Yet the Good People at Time would have apoplexy
if you accused them of bias.

I too was somewhat surprised with the Time cover when I saw it.

For one of the "mainstream" media outlets, allegedly controlled by
the "gumint", surely someone in the editorial review board was going
to be sent off to the Gulag for that one!

Question the war if you must, but that cover and title was a cheap shot,
with little journalistic merit.


SMH

How about you? Any fruit of your loins participatants in the current
dust-up?


Chris Mark

I got one grandson ready to go. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Well, my grandson served in the 3rd on the charge up. We didn't hear from him
from Feb. 25 until almost the end of May. One of my strongest impressions of

I'm glad he got through it, and I hope he comes safely home.

influenced in my thinking by my time assigned to the 3rd in Korea in 1950 with
a TACP. When we went into to the Wonsan area we were told not to worry, just
some final mopping up operations, the NKs were all done, although they still
had some fight in them. Those "mopping up" operations were inflicting hundreds
of casualties on the troops. But that was nothing compared to what happened
when the Chinese poured in and the 3rd began a fighting retreat centered on

Well, I doubt Syria or Iran can or would be willing to back up Saddam
as China backed up North Korea.

A friend of mine served with the British army in Korea and used to
tell stories about the Americans' dislike of personal combat--using
artillery instead of sending out a patrol, etc. But when you read of
the campaigns in WWII and Korea, what's astonishing is the williness
to take huge casualties. Units routinely lost 10 percent of their
strength in 48 hours--that sort of thing.

I suppose it was Vietnam that changed that, as it changed so many
things.

It is always good to hear from you, Chris. Your posts are a pillar of
sanity on this newsgroup. I especially appreciated learning a bit more
of your personal history.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

From: Cub Driver look@m

A friend of mine served with the British army in Korea and used to
tell stories about the Americans' dislike of personal combat--using
artillery instead of sending out a patrol,

That's the American way of war: Fire kills.

But when you read of
the campaigns in WWII and Korea, what's astonishing is the williness
to take huge casualties. Units routinely lost 10 percent of their
strength in 48 hours--that sort of thing.

Yes. It makes you puzzle over why, today, a handful of casualties so small
they wouldn't have even been enumerated--only listed as "light"--causes such
national upset.

I suppose it was Vietnam that changed that, as it changed so many
things.

I suppose so, too. That was the great watershed, in so many ways. It wasn't
WW2 or Korea that really changed the character of the country. It was Vietnam.
Just like there was America before and after the Civil War, so is there
America before and after Vietnam.

It is always good to hear from you, Chris. Your posts are a pillar of
sanity on this newsgroup.

Most kind of you to say so. Right back at you.

On the subject of Hangnam, it is pretty much a forgotten episode. The Marines
battle at Chosin is rightly remembered, as they went through the Chicoms like
Caesar through Gaul. (Wasn't that where Chesty Puller said, "They've got us
surrounded--they won't get away this time!) But the Army was there, too (and
the Air Force!). A few memories stand out for me. One was, having driven our
jeep up to a high point to get better radio reception, one of the boys looked
around at the scene and said, "Well, I wouldn't have believed it, but it's
true--hell can freeze over." (I think that was actually a pretty common line
during the Korean War, but it was the first time I had heard it.) And another
one was a casual comment I heard, one dogface saying to another, "What the hell
are you bitching about? You're getting paid $2.60 a day ain't you?"

Don Chase, 1/15/3, penned some pretty decent poems about the Wonsan-Hangnam
episode. A sample:

"Fallen Comrades"

No matter what I'm doing, or where my steps may roam,
I think about my comrades who never came back home.
Many years have passed, but my memory hasn't dimmed;
A picture of those men, still clings and lies within.

I see their unlined faces, which never did grow old;
The shy, timid, withdrawn ones, and also those so bold.
Still hear their youthful banter, brightening many dreary days,
Keeping all their fear Inside, each one in different ways.

Yet all did their duty, as good soldiers do so well,
Existing under conditions, that offtimes were sheer hell.
I remember all the sharing, both rations and packages from wives;
This generousness of spirit, always kept so much alive.

All of this stays with me, ever turning in my mind,
Faces drifting pass my eyes, from another place and time.
So many times I've wondered, why them instead of me?
Maybe in some future world, I'll be allowed to see.

****

Excerpt from a longer poem, "Ballad of a Retreat"

They had us all surrounded,
I could hear them scream and yell,
My feelings at that moment,
No tongue could ever tell.
I saw the bursting mortar shells,
And the bullets around me flew,
As all my strength had left me,
And all my courage too.

With the breaking of the morning,
Just before the dawn,
I heard the sounding bugles,
And the big attack was on.
The cotton quilted uniforms
Against our bullet spree,
The screaming yelling banzai,
They called the human sea.

Baby faces bearded,
And chapped with hardenin'mud,
Parkas that were dirty,
And stained with frozen blood.
Here a bunch of youngsters,
Who fought on till the end,
In the battle without an end,
Where boys were changed to men.

Twelve long miles of convoy,
Headed for the sea,
Roadblocks at every turning,
Down to the frozen sea.
The frost bite and the wounded,
With their dead and dying too,
No matter what the objective be,
These boys were going through,
The Captain he informed us.

Perhaps he thought it right,
That before we reach the river, boys,
We're going to have a fight.
We're going out like Americans,
In an organized withdrawal,
And no matter what the rumors say,
It's no retreat at all.

We fought at least nine hours,
Before the strife was o'er
And the like of dead and wounded,
I've never seen before.
But the everlasting promise,
Kept along each bloody yard,
No one leaves behind the wounded,
'Cause there ain't no fight that hard.

The chaplain collected dog tags,
In his hands were quite a few,
There was Captain Smith's, McCloskie's,
And Corporal Bryan's too.
And before we reached the river,
And fought our way back through,
The sergeant had the dog tags,
And he had the chaplain's too....
.....

If I made you pause one moment,
And take a little time,
Then I know it wasn't just in vain,
That I put these words to rhyme.
For there're just too many people,
Who take this all in stride,
Who hear these tales of battles,
Then cast it all aside...


Chris Mark

The Marines battle at Chosin is rightly remembered, as they went through the Chicoms like
Caesar through Gaul. (Wasn't that where Chesty Puller said, "They've got us
surrounded--they won't get away this time!) But the Army was there, too

According to _Breakout_ by Martin Russ, the Army units up north were
so inept they were a burden on the marines, rather than help. They had
to be rescued by the marines as the latter fought their way out.

The Army's performance was so bad the U.S. Congress conducted an
investigation to determine what went wrong and why.

vince norris

From: vincent p. norris

According to _Breakout_ by Martin Russ, the Army units up north were
so inept they were a burden on the marines, rather than help.

The only things the Marines did at Hungnam was march through the perimeter held
by the 3rd ID, board ships and leave. Next to be evacuated were the ROK troops.
Remnants of the 7th ID which was strung out in a rapid advance when the
Chicoms hit and was badly mauled, left next. Then 100,000 civilian refugees
which streamed into the city were evacuated. The 3rd which had been dealing
with the NK in the Wonsan area and had made a fighting retreat to Hungnam,
secured and held the perimeter, some 7 miles deep, throughout the entire
evacuation. 3ID troops were the last off the beach. The 1st Marine division
played no role at Hungnam other than evacuating from there.
As far as the situation when the Chinese attacked, it was worth a congressional
investigation to find out just what happened. Remember than Gen. MacArthur
had pushed 8th Army's Gen. Walker to advance faster and threatened to remove
him if he didn't. X Corps MG Edward Almond was aware of that and pushed his
units to move forward on the double. The 7th ID, NNW of the lst Marines, did
as ordered. The Marines' Gen Oliver Smith moved forward very slowly, so slowly
that Almond chided him repeatedly. One reason Smith was so cautious is that
the Marines had run into Chicoms in the first week of Nov.--when no chinese
were thought or anticipated to be in Korea. Had the 7th ID had a similar
encounter, they might have slowed and been better prepared to resist the hit of
some 300,000 Chicoms. Smith himself said that if his division had been
dispersed like 7ID it would have been wiped out. As it was, he was able to
command a compact legion that scythed through the Chicoms and reached a port of
evacuation held by a US Army Division, the Third, which had had to fight its
way there itself--with nary a marine to be found.
The 3rd, which nominally a full division, was understrength by an incredible
8,500 men when it was sent to assist in "mop up" operations of North Korean
troops around Wonsan. The shortage at the time wasn't considered a bid deal
because major combat was assumed to be over.
This mopping up cost hundreds of casualties, but was considered "light" by the
standards of the day. But by Dec.1, when the 3rd was ordered to secure
Hungnam, the Chicoms had infiltrated troops into the area and cut the rail
lines and placed roadblocks along the road routes. The 3rd fought its way
through all of these, made it to Hungnam, and secured it. No Marines had to
rescue them.
A month after leaving Hungnam the 3rd was back in action in brutal fighting to
secure bridgeheads over the Han river and was in fierce fighting beyond the
Han. During a massive Chinese counterattack during the last week of April 1951
iirc about a half dozen CMHs went to 3ID soldiers. Then they went into the
original "Iron Triangle" (before the one in Vietnam). And on through the war.
I would not consider myself an expert on the Korean War, but Russ's comments do
seem to be out of line.


Chris Mark

The Army's performance was so bad the U.S. Congress conducted an
investigation to determine what went wrong and why.

It also affected the U.S. Army for years afterward! I went through
basic training in the winter of 1956, and of course the cadre were all
veterans of Korea. They were intensely aware of how badly the troops
were trained for that conflict (as I recall, the army set up training
centers behind the lines, so as to knock some skills into the men who
were sent over), and they were determined that it wouldn't happen on
their watch. They ran us ragged.

I believe that even the system of putting every recruit through "first
eight" of infantry basic was the result of the Korean experience.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Found this poem that explains how the Hungnam perimeter was held by those
worthless dogfaces (author unknown):

There is a story that should be told
Of seven brave men
Facing death in a place called Hungnam
Snow 3 feet deep and 40 below
A night patrol is ordered
Seven volunteer, alive and wounded.

Beards crusted with ice and blood
Feet frozen beyond pain.
Lives depend on this patrol
Loved ones pray for their return
A sniper's aim is true
Six alive and wounded.

Hungnam port is 7 miles south;
Safety, warmth and food,
Quietly they advance, inch by inch
One man coughs:
Five alive and wounded.

Night becomes day
Flares burn slowly in the black sky
Silent is the air, too cold for sound
Grenades explode, a deafening roar
Three alive and wounded.

One hour without movement
Bones and muscles resist
Nerves strained and tense
Make one want to scream
A burp gun shatters the silence
Two alive and wounded.

A bullet races on its way.
Flesh gives way to steel;
One alive and wounded.

Alone and scared remains the one:
Forty below and sweating.

An upward look into a Chinese face,
Frozen hands can't pull the trigger.
A blow to the head and blessed sleep;
One alive, wounded, and a prisoner.





Chris Mark

According to _Breakout_ by Martin Russ, the Army units up north were
so inept they were a burden on the marines, rather than help.

The only things the Marines did at Hungnam was march through the perimeter held
by the 3rd ID, board ships and leave.

What happened at Hungnam is irrelevant. Neither Russ's book nor my
posting was about Hungnam.

I would not consider myself an expert on the Korean War,

In that case, you might learn something by reading Russ's book.
You could also read the Congressional hearings cited in his book.

And see Dan Ford's posting.

vince norris.

From: vincent p. norris

What happened at Hungnam is irrelevant. Neither Russ's book nor my
posting was about Hungnam.

yeah, but my post to which you responded was, only making a passing reference
to the Marines (and a complimentary one), and you said "the Army units up
north" and Hungnam is "up north." You came out of left field with an uncalled
for slur on dead young men. I suppose you spend your vacations traveling to
military cemetaries and ****ing on graves. Another asshole for the killfile.





Chris Mark