Excessive valve clearance cause low power?

I've have discovered just-barely-out-of-limits pushrod lengths on one
cylinder can cause a loss of 2-3 knots cruise speed.

Excessive clearance changes the effective valve timing, retarding the
opening and thus decreasing power.
This is one area that blueprint engine builders pay much attention to.

I have a suspicion that since the field overhaul ignored the pushrod
lengths, they probably ignored the testing of the lifter hydraulic units.
There is a spec for the bleed-down rate.

You need to fix this soon. Excessive clearance is hard on the camshaft.

I know where find the camshaft specs. I'll post them here.

Kent Felkins
Tulsa



wrote in message
...
Hey all. Been meaning to post this for awhile (almost done with the
annual now), but campus news
server has been down. Anyway...

I've got a 180hp O-360-A3A Lycoming in my Cherokee. The engine has always
been just a bit weak
since we've owned it. We've now got about 500 hours on it since we bought
it with what I now know was a
"service limits overhaul." It's always been at the very bottom end of the
static RPM allowance on the
TCDS (2250 RPM is the bottom of the range). Very occasionally (approx 1
out of 25 takeoffs), the power
output is even more decreased for the first 60 seconds after takeoff. Not
enough to notice under normal
conditions ("Geez... only getting 500 fpm instead of 650"), but definately
enough to get your attention
at high density altitudes and/or heavily loaded. While it's not always
obvious it's happening, when I
suspect it is I've done mag checks, looked at EGT, looked at manifold
pressure.... nothing unusual and
everything is running smoothly.

Things we've checked over the years:
- Compression is always good (77-80/80 on all four)
- Propeller is correct and brand new when we bought it... pitched the
standard 60"
- Tach has been checked with calibrated strobe-tach.
- Muffler baffles checked and fine... nothing loose inside
- Mags have had fresh points/condensers, internally and externally timed.
- Plugs have been replaced, cleaned, gapped, rotated multiple times, etc.
- Done "wobble test" on valve guides. Worn, but within the limits.

So, while we were doing the annual this year, we figured we'd check to
make sure the hydraulic
lifters were OK. They checked out fine, but when we put it back together
noticed that a number of the
valves had excessive dry-tappet clearance. Book calls for 0.028-0.080.
We had only two barely within
that spec, and 6 with clearances ranging from 0.090-0.130. We've got some
longer pushrods on the way to
get them all within spec.

The question is, will the hydraulic lifters take up the slack, or could
the longer extension
cause increased bleed-down that would reduce valve travel? If the former,
then it would just make the
valves noisy for a bit after startup, but takeoff/climb/cruise would be
unaffected. If the latter, then
maybe it would affect the power at all RPMs?

Another thing we checked while we had the lifters out was the cam lift.
Putting a dial indicator
on the tappets directly, we measured anywhere from 0.355-0.360" on all
lobes. After calling a half-dozen
shops to find out what the book specification is for a Lycoming cam
(apparently not published anywhere),
I measured a friend's new ECI AEL-18840 cam at 0.353. Since all of my
lobes are the same, and apparently
the same as a new ECI cam, I figure the cam is fine.

Thoughts? Comments? If this fixes the chronic low power, I'll be
ecstatic, but I'm skeptical that it
will affect anything.

-Cory



--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Fly fly at Tulsaconnect.com wrote:
: I've have discovered just-barely-out-of-limits pushrod lengths on one
: cylinder can cause a loss of 2-3 knots cruise speed.

: Excessive clearance changes the effective valve timing, retarding the
: opening and thus decreasing power.
: This is one area that blueprint engine builders pay much attention to.

: I have a suspicion that since the field overhaul ignored the pushrod
: lengths, they probably ignored the testing of the lifter hydraulic units.
: There is a spec for the bleed-down rate.

: You need to fix this soon. Excessive clearance is hard on the camshaft.

: I know where find the camshaft specs. I'll post them here.

: Kent Felkins
: Tulsa

It sure seems like the lifters would have plenty of adjustment to take up the slack. The
bleed-down rate would have to be affected pretty significantly to affect the effective valve lift at 2500
RPM though, I'd think. From what I've been able to google up on the subject, bleed-down shouldn't affect
high-RPM valve operation much. It's pretty much a low-RPM thing. Then again, you can't believe
everything you read online... much better to appeal to random folks on USENET.

As far as the lifters go, we did the "squeeze" test as mentioned in the overhaul engine manual.
Nothing out of spec as far as that was concerned, but it's probably not too accurate.

If you could find the camshaft specs, it would be absolutely the only place they're posted on the
'net as far as I've been able to find. That'd be great...

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

New camhafts been measured at .357 intake and .358 exhaust lift. At .050
valve opening.


wrote in message
...
Fly fly at Tulsaconnect.com wrote:
: I've have discovered just-barely-out-of-limits pushrod lengths on one
: cylinder can cause a loss of 2-3 knots cruise speed.

: Excessive clearance changes the effective valve timing, retarding the
: opening and thus decreasing power.
: This is one area that blueprint engine builders pay much attention to.

: I have a suspicion that since the field overhaul ignored the pushrod
: lengths, they probably ignored the testing of the lifter hydraulic
units.
: There is a spec for the bleed-down rate.

: You need to fix this soon. Excessive clearance is hard on the camshaft.

: I know where find the camshaft specs. I'll post them here.

: Kent Felkins
: Tulsa

It sure seems like the lifters would have plenty of adjustment to take up
the slack. The
bleed-down rate would have to be affected pretty significantly to affect
the effective valve lift at 2500
RPM though, I'd think. From what I've been able to google up on the
subject, bleed-down shouldn't affect
high-RPM valve operation much. It's pretty much a low-RPM thing. Then
again, you can't believe
everything you read online... much better to appeal to random folks on
USENET.

As far as the lifters go, we did the "squeeze" test as mentioned in the
overhaul engine manual.
Nothing out of spec as far as that was concerned, but it's probably not
too accurate.

If you could find the camshaft specs, it would be absolutely the only
place they're posted on the
'net as far as I've been able to find. That'd be great...

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

Fly fly at Tulsaconnect.com wrote:
: New camhafts been measured at .357 intake and .358 exhaust lift. At .050
: valve opening.

Thank you. That's what I measured on all of the lobes of mine (at least to within the
0.001-0.003 accuracy I could measure with my dial indicator).

-Cory


--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************