The Osprey Goes to War

On Oct 2, 5:14?pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 2, 5:20 am, Walt wrote:





On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote:

BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?

Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46

SNIP

If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..

Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.

BB

Is the Cobra really the only possible escort?
I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the
high speed transit phase.

Roger- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't
supress a treeline the way a Cobra can.

I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's
what you've seen me post:

1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is
limited to the range and speed of the escorts

I'm not really sure why you think the Cobras will slow the V-22s
down...operationally, it would be idiocy for the troop carriers to
arrive over the battlefield at the same time as the gunships, since
you want the gunships (and Harriers, to boot) to have arrived overhead
and begun destroying targets and softening the LZ well before the
larger birds are in the threat zone. If you've got troop carriers, be
they CH-46s, Blackhawks, or V-22s cruising in looking for a place to
land WHILE the first wave of Cobras is coming in, then it doesn't
matter what airframe you're in, the bad guys will target the low,
slow, fat with Marines birds and hope they can kill those before the
snakes spot them.

But with the increased speed of the V-22s, they can make more trips
between the boat or base and the LZ in the same amount of time, which
means more boots getting on the ground while the enemy is still
recovering from the gunships' attention. Let the Cobras and Harriers
come and go as fuel and weapons are expended...there will be enough
that one flight can always be hitting the target zone while others are
en route to or from the launch point.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is mostly good info, thanks.

1. The Osprey is still limited to how far from the boat/field the
Cobras can go.

2. It is a violation of basic common sense to think they can zip
around at no escorts. Maybe that is how the Marines rationalized
buying the damn thing. But that would be, yes, why they are limited
to the speed of the Cobra. You need en route escorts.

3. Referencing the above, saying that the Ospreys can zip around with
no escorts makes plans based on assumptions versus capabilities. That
is what the Japs did at Midway. They made plans based on how they
thought the Amercians -would- react, not based on how they -could-
react.

This is how the epitaph of the MV-22 should read:

"Finally cancelled due to common sense"

Walt

Walt wrote:
On Oct 2, 5:14?pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 2, 5:20 am, Walt wrote:





On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?
Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46
SNIP
If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..
Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.
BB
Is the Cobra really the only possible escort?
I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the
high speed transit phase.
Roger- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't
supress a treeline the way a Cobra can.
I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's
what you've seen me post:
1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is
limited to the range and speed of the escorts
I'm not really sure why you think the Cobras will slow the V-22s
down...operationally, it would be idiocy for the troop carriers to
arrive over the battlefield at the same time as the gunships, since
you want the gunships (and Harriers, to boot) to have arrived overhead
and begun destroying targets and softening the LZ well before the
larger birds are in the threat zone. If you've got troop carriers, be
they CH-46s, Blackhawks, or V-22s cruising in looking for a place to
land WHILE the first wave of Cobras is coming in, then it doesn't
matter what airframe you're in, the bad guys will target the low,
slow, fat with Marines birds and hope they can kill those before the
snakes spot them.

But with the increased speed of the V-22s, they can make more trips
between the boat or base and the LZ in the same amount of time, which
means more boots getting on the ground while the enemy is still
recovering from the gunships' attention. Let the Cobras and Harriers
come and go as fuel and weapons are expended...there will be enough
that one flight can always be hitting the target zone while others are
en route to or from the launch point.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is mostly good info, thanks.

1. The Osprey is still limited to how far from the boat/field the
Cobras can go.
{snip}

Assuming that the Cobras and Osprey come from the same boat. Also
that chick of Osprey does not have a longer range.


Andrew Swallow

On Oct 4, 6:05?am, Andrew Swallow wrote:
Walt wrote:
On Oct 2, 5:14?pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 2, 5:20 am, Walt wrote:

On Oct 2, 2:48?am, Roger Conroy wrote:
BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 1, 6:11 pm, Kerryn Offord wrote:
***
Maybe no more vulnerable to being shot at.. but the effect of being hit?
Although there are no perfect survivability systems out there, the
systems on the Osprey are 1) more numerous and 2) more advanced, than
the survivability systems on the CH-46
SNIP
If it has a cobra escort.. Well.. It loses it's altitude/ speed
advantage over alternative modern helicopters..
Rendevous scenario. The Cobras launch from a forward base and meet at
the LZ with the Osprey which has travelled from a base further away.
BB
Is the Cobra really the only possible escort?
I'm thinking that the AV-8 could do a pretty decent job during the
high speed transit phase.
Roger- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
AV-8's go too fast to really see what is on the ground. An AV-8 can't
supress a treeline the way a Cobra can.
I recall reading in the Marine Corps Gazette back in the early 1980's
what you've seen me post:
1. Doesn't matter what the range and speed of the V-22 is. It is
limited to the range and speed of the escorts
I'm not really sure why you think the Cobras will slow the V-22s
down...operationally, it would be idiocy for the troop carriers to
arrive over the battlefield at the same time as the gunships, since
you want the gunships (and Harriers, to boot) to have arrived overhead
and begun destroying targets and softening the LZ well before the
larger birds are in the threat zone. If you've got troop carriers, be
they CH-46s, Blackhawks, or V-22s cruising in looking for a place to
land WHILE the first wave of Cobras is coming in, then it doesn't
matter what airframe you're in, the bad guys will target the low,
slow, fat with Marines birds and hope they can kill those before the
snakes spot them.

But with the increased speed of the V-22s, they can make more trips
between the boat or base and the LZ in the same amount of time, which
means more boots getting on the ground while the enemy is still
recovering from the gunships' attention. Let the Cobras and Harriers
come and go as fuel and weapons are expended...there will be enough
that one flight can always be hitting the target zone while others are
en route to or from the launch point.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That is mostly good info, thanks.

1. The Osprey is still limited to how far from the boat/field the
Cobras can go.

{snip}

Assuming that the Cobras and Osprey come from the same boat. Also
that chick of Osprey does not have a longer range.

Andrew Swallow- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Saying that the Osprey and Cobras can fly from different fields and
meet up violates the KISS rule. Their is a tremendous amount of
coordination involved in a troop lift. Implicit in what you are
saying is that the different units would not be able to attend the
same brief before they launch.

And I guess you are seeing a scenario where the Cobras have a base 50
miles inland and the MV-22's are maybe 50 miles out at sea -- then
they can comfortably reach the same distance inland.

Walt

Walt wrote:
[snip]


And I guess you are seeing a scenario where the Cobras have a base 50
miles inland and the MV-22's are maybe 50 miles out at sea -- then
they can comfortably reach the same distance inland.

Walt


I was thinking more of the situation where the the helicopters
were coming from a carrier (or destroyer) and the Ospreys were
coming form a marine transport ship. Fleet actions frequently
involve more than 1 ship and land artillery finds it difficult to
hit ships that are over the horizon because it cannot see them.

Andrew Swallow

On Oct 4, 6:12 am, Walt wrote:

Saying that the Osprey and Cobras can fly from different fields and
meet up violates the KISS rule. Their is a tremendous amount of
coordination involved in a troop lift. Implicit in what you are
saying is that the different units would not be able to attend the
same brief before they launch.

And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?

On Oct 4, 7:30?am, Typhoon502 wrote:
And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?

Routine air-to-air refuleing is routine. It's administrative. It's
done away from harm's way. You don't seem to have analysed this very
thoroughly.

And the KISS rule always applies.

Again - use of the Osprey without escorts makes assumptions that will
kill a lot of grunts.

The whole thing is based on the idea - "Well, if this is the way it
goes, we'll be alright."

You can't -assume- when it comes to enemy interntions or capabilities.

Walt

On Oct 5, 6:23 am, Walt wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:30?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?

Routine air-to-air refuleing is routine. It's administrative. It's
done away from harm's way. You don't seem to have analysed this very
thoroughly.

And the KISS rule always applies.

Again - use of the Osprey without escorts makes assumptions that will
kill a lot of grunts.

The whole thing is based on the idea - "Well, if this is the way it
goes, we'll be alright."

You can't -assume- when it comes to enemy interntions or capabilities.

No, but you plan based on your capabilities, your resources, and your
intelligence. And the Osprey brings a whole new set of capabilites to
the table, especially more speed. So what if you don't launch the
Ospreys when you launch the Cobras? They're all going to the same
place and time-on-target exercises are so old-hat that it's downright
silly to wring your hands over the question of whether the mission
planners can get the Ospreys to arrive in the LZ ten minutes after the
Cobras have commenced their attacks.

Plus, you also act as if there is no possibility of fast-jet cover
from sea or land, which is ludicrous. American ground forces have not
gone to war without air superiority since, what, Korea? WWII? If you
*have* to escort the Ospreys in, and all you have are Corps assets,
then task the Harriers to that role and let the Hornets team up with
the Cobras to beat up the LZ. I'm sure that the Task Force CAG will
loan a Hawkeye and a flight of Super Bugs to watch out for enemy air
threats.

On Oct 5, 8:46?am, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 6:23 am, Walt wrote:





On Oct 4, 7:30?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?

Routine air-to-air refuleing is routine. It's administrative. It's
done away from harm's way. You don't seem to have analysed this very
thoroughly.

And the KISS rule always applies.

Again - use of the Osprey without escorts makes assumptions that will
kill a lot of grunts.

The whole thing is based on the idea - "Well, if this is the way it
goes, we'll be alright."

You can't -assume- when it comes to enemy interntions or capabilities.

No, but you plan based on your capabilities, your resources, and your
intelligence. And the Osprey brings a whole new set of capabilites to
the table, especially more speed. So what if you don't launch the
Ospreys when you launch the Cobras? They're all going to the same
place and time-on-target exercises are so old-hat that it's downright
silly to wring your hands over the question of whether the mission
planners can get the Ospreys to arrive in the LZ ten minutes after the
Cobras have commenced their attacks.

Plus, you also act as if there is no possibility of fast-jet cover
from sea or land, which is ludicrous. American ground forces have not
gone to war without air superiority since, what, Korea? WWII? If you
*have* to escort the Ospreys in, and all you have are Corps assets,
then task the Harriers to that role and let the Hornets team up with
the Cobras to beat up the LZ. I'm sure that the Task Force CAG will
loan a Hawkeye and a flight of Super Bugs to watch out for enemy air
threats.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

I know some people want to argue just the sake of argument, but gee
whiz. Again, what I am saying appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette
almost 25 years ago in an article written,a s I recall, by two USMC
majors.

Walt

Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 6:23 am, Walt wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:30?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?
Routine air-to-air refuleing is routine. It's administrative. It's
done away from harm's way. You don't seem to have analysed this very
thoroughly.

And the KISS rule always applies.

Again - use of the Osprey without escorts makes assumptions that will
kill a lot of grunts.

The whole thing is based on the idea - "Well, if this is the way it
goes, we'll be alright."

You can't -assume- when it comes to enemy interntions or capabilities.

No, but you plan based on your capabilities, your resources, and your
intelligence. And the Osprey brings a whole new set of capabilites to
the table, especially more speed. So what if you don't launch the
Ospreys when you launch the Cobras? They're all going to the same
place and time-on-target exercises are so old-hat that it's downright
silly to wring your hands over the question of whether the mission
planners can get the Ospreys to arrive in the LZ ten minutes after the
Cobras have commenced their attacks.


read what you are writing

The Ospreys are the transports, the Cobras are the close in escorts.
1) you just lost the surprise element as soon as the Cobras take off
2) the only capability the osprey brings to the table is speed in
horizontal flight. in every other variable it is inferior to a
helicopter of the same horsepower.

As a result you have completely negated the speed advantage


Plus, you also act as if there is no possibility of fast-jet cover
from sea or land, which is ludicrous. American ground forces have not
gone to war without air superiority since, what, Korea? WWII? If you
*have* to escort the Ospreys in, and all you have are Corps assets,
then task the Harriers to that role and let the Hornets team up with
the Cobras to beat up the LZ. I'm sure that the Task Force CAG will
loan a Hawkeye and a flight of Super Bugs to watch out for enemy air
threats.

Again you lose the speed advantage , the only rationale for this one
trick pony

so that newcomers understand.

The ospreys speed advantage in horizontal flight is derived from
rotating the prop rotors to horizontal flight. However this put an
absolute maximum size on both the rotor and the cabin. Both are
inefficiently small The small "prop rotors" are inefficient in vertical
flight. They are far smaller than an efficient helicopter rotor driven
by the same horsepower. So the horsepower requirements are enormous for
the lift.

Because the horsepower requirements are enormous the osprey has the
Engines of a heavy lift helicopter and the cargo capabilities of a
medium lift helicopter.

The small rotors are driven faster which creates far greater down wash
as they land.

The tilt machinery and long drive shaft required to deal with engine
failure impose a permanent weight penalty. so weight control was critical.

The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only occur
at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a modern
helicopter in every possible way.

But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload of
about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded , the
less armament

So how do you mix the two?

Vince