Expanded World Class

On Oct 4, 6:58 am, toad wrote:
On Oct 4, 5:38 am, Dan G wrote:

The World Class is a dead end, replaced by the highly successful Club
Class:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_...ses#Club_Class

The FAI should just let it quietly die. Back in 1989 there were no old
plastic gliders to populate what could be a "club class" and so a low-
cost "entry-level" design made sense, but nearly twenty years on
there's just no point in flying such a compromised aircraft as the
PW5. For a fraction of the cost of a new one, you can just pick up a
used Cirrus, Grob or Libelle and get a glider with considerably better
performance, and compete in the Club Class if you want to.

Dan

The PW5 as a world class glider is dead and will fade away. But a
cheaper one-design class is still a good idea. It might not ever
happen, but it's a good idea.

Todd

"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

I know most of you want soaring to grow and know that the rising cost
of gliders threaten the sport. Don't you wonder why a few people are
trying to kill World Class? Perhaps these are some of the reasons:

Diminished impact. - A few pilots want to impress others with their
terrific flight. They may not want to share the glory with a person
flying a ship costing a fraction of what they spent. Recent World
records speak volumes about the PW 5's suitability for long tasks,
even over difficult terrain. We are just beginning to see what the
ship can do. Does the growing list of people who frequently fly 300K
or better threaten the justifications for spending huge sums of money
on other glass ships?

Not part of a close group- Even at contest, where protests abound, the
PW 5 group is enjoying themselves. The only thing that is not easy to
do with a PW 5 is come up with excuses for losing in a contest. It is
the pilot not the plane.

Safety. This sturdy, high winged, easy to fly ship makes land-outs
easy. A very ill-informed contributor to this group suggested that a
PW 5 couldn't deal with strong lift. I have flown in wave and in
thermals in Cal. City, Minden, and Parowan with confidence in a well-
tested design.

Makes the "club" less exclusive - I became a cross-county pilot and
fly in contests because I fly a ship I can afford. Modest initial
cost, inexpensive insurance, zero maintenance - all contribute to my
being able to fly all over the country.

I don't need to explain to you that one class design is the way to
build our sport. Look at one design sailboats. I have never heard a
J Boat owner berate a Sunfish enthusiast. Maybe it's because he/she
learned to sail in that boat. If the World Class loses its one design
status, we will be back to people buying their way into the winner's
circle.

Most of you don't feel threatened by the World Class glider. Why not
support the ideals that brought World Class into existence?

On Oct 4, 11:12 am, Vsoars wrote:
On Oct 4, 6:58 am, toad wrote:



On Oct 4, 5:38 am, Dan G wrote:

The World Class is a dead end, replaced by the highly successful Club
Class:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_...ses#Club_Class

The FAI should just let it quietly die. Back in 1989 there were no old
plastic gliders to populate what could be a "club class" and so a low-
cost "entry-level" design made sense, but nearly twenty years on
there's just no point in flying such a compromised aircraft as the
PW5. For a fraction of the cost of a new one, you can just pick up a
used Cirrus, Grob or Libelle and get a glider with considerably better
performance, and compete in the Club Class if you want to.

Dan

The PW5 as a world class glider is dead and will fade away. But a
cheaper one-design class is still a good idea. It might not ever
happen, but it's a good idea.

Todd

"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

I know most of you want soaring to grow and know that the rising cost
of gliders threaten the sport. Don't you wonder why a few people are
trying to kill World Class? Perhaps these are some of the reasons:

Diminished impact. - A few pilots want to impress others with their
terrific flight. They may not want to share the glory with a person
flying a ship costing a fraction of what they spent. Recent World
records speak volumes about the PW 5's suitability for long tasks,
even over difficult terrain. We are just beginning to see what the
ship can do. Does the growing list of people who frequently fly 300K
or better threaten the justifications for spending huge sums of money
on other glass ships?

Not part of a close group- Even at contest, where protests abound, the
PW 5 group is enjoying themselves. The only thing that is not easy to
do with a PW 5 is come up with excuses for losing in a contest. It is
the pilot not the plane.

Safety. This sturdy, high winged, easy to fly ship makes land-outs
easy. A very ill-informed contributor to this group suggested that a
PW 5 couldn't deal with strong lift. I have flown in wave and in
thermals in Cal. City, Minden, and Parowan with confidence in a well-
tested design.

Makes the "club" less exclusive - I became a cross-county pilot and
fly in contests because I fly a ship I can afford. Modest initial
cost, inexpensive insurance, zero maintenance - all contribute to my
being able to fly all over the country.

I don't need to explain to you that one class design is the way to
build our sport. Look at one design sailboats. I have never heard a
J Boat owner berate a Sunfish enthusiast. Maybe it's because he/she
learned to sail in that boat. If the World Class loses its one design
status, we will be back to people buying their way into the winner's
circle.

Most of you don't feel threatened by the World Class glider. Why not
support the ideals that brought World Class into existence?

I don't know if this is directed at me, but I'll respond anyway.

I support most of the ideals of the World Class concept, except for
the "early solo" pilots part. But the specific design criteria that
resulted in the PW5's low performance is what killed the class, not
disdain from other pilots. When I've been to contests where there was
a PW5 flying, they did not seem to be having much fun, because they
landed out all the damn time.

People keep comparing to sailboat one design racing, but there is a
big difference between sailing a Sunfish in weak conditions and flying
a PW5 in weak conditions, the PW5 lands out and the Sunfish does NOT
sink. Avoiding landing out in weak conditions is why a minimum of
performance is needed.

The only way I can support the "World class" is to buy one myself or
with a club. But before I did this, the glider has to have enough
performance that I would have fun. So I express what I think should
be changed to allow this to happen. This doesn't mean that I am
threatened, but I feel the concept has not been well executed.

Todd Smith
Grob 102
3S

On Oct 4, 1:07 pm, toad wrote:


People keep comparing to sailboat one design racing, but there is a
big difference between sailing a Sunfish in weak conditions and flying
a PW5 in weak conditions, the PW5 lands out and the Sunfish does NOT
sink. Avoiding landing out in weak conditions is why a minimum of
performance is needed.

The only way I can support the "World class" is to buy one myself or
with a club. But before I did this, the glider has to have enough
performance that I would have fun. So I express what I think should
be changed to allow this to happen. This doesn't mean that I am
threatened, but I feel the concept has not been well executed.

Todd Smith
Grob 102
3S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Another issue I see in the comparison between sailboat racing and
gliding is cost. We're talking about vastly different price points.

Here's the problem. For the same price as a PW-5, I can buy an
LS-3. This cost is somewhere just north of $25K, with an LS-3 maybe
a shade lower than the PW-5. I don't think anyone would argue
that the LS-3 has significantly better performance, not just at Max L/
D but more importantly at 60kts and above. At 70kts, in fact, the
LS-3 has more or less double the L/D of the PW-5. In gliding,
that's a BIG difference.

We can look at single-handed dinghy sailboats as a comparison. We're
looking at a used Laser at anywhere from maybe $1000 for a ratty one
with a lot of time on it to maybe $4,000 for a newer one in cherry
condition. At the same time, a ratty Sunfish can be had for
probably $300 while a cherry might fetch $1000. To make a fair
comparison, let's assume both boats in similar age and condition; say
10 years old and solid mechanical shape with hull scratches and
cosmetically poor deck. We'll put the Sunfish at $500 and the Laser
at $1500. There's no doubt that the Laser is a "better" boat for
reasonably accomplished sailors. It's harder to sail (almost killed
myself in one once) than the Sunfish but it handles better and can go
a bit faster, and the price seems to reflect that. However, even
though it's better, as Todd noted you can still sail on the same
course with the Sunfish and finish 10 times out of 10.

Let's say that Sunfish was the only recognized one design class in
dinghy sailing. I could buy one for $500 and race in Sunfish
regattas to my heart's content. I might also buy a Laser for fun.
The combined cost is less than a used Cobra trailer.

Cutting to the point, the economics don't favor the PW-5. If the
PW-5 was maybe $10K, it might have been a big seller. But, at $25K
plus it's not in the running, especially with Club Class offering very
competitive racing for even less money.

P3

On Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:12:17 -0000, Vsoars wrote:


I know most of you want soaring to grow and know that the rising cost
of gliders threaten the sport. Don't you wonder why a few people are
trying to kill World Class? Perhaps these are some of the reasons:

None is trying to kill the World class.
In fact, by choosing the PW-5 it commited suicide.

The market has decided. Face it - there are simply very few people
who are excited by flying a PW-5.


Diminished impact. - A few pilots want to impress others with their
terrific flight. They may not want to share the glory with a person
flying a ship costing a fraction of what they spent.

Sharing the glory is not part of the problem.
The problem is that extremely few pilots love to spend big $$$ on a
glider whose performance is inferior to even basic two-seat trainers,
not to mention 1st-generation glass gliders like Libelle, ASW-15 et
cetera that can be bought for one third of the price for PW-5 - and
which outperform the poor PW-5 hands-down.


Recent World
records speak volumes about the PW 5's suitability for long tasks,
even over difficult terrain. We are just beginning to see what the
ship can do.

Depends on the definition of a "long task". The PW-5 offers the same
performance as an ancient Ka-6E - but today's pilots standards are way
higher.


I don't need to explain to you that one class design is the way to
build our sport. Look at one design sailboats. I have never heard a
J Boat owner berate a Sunfish enthusiast. Maybe it's because he/she
learned to sail in that boat. If the World Class loses its one design
status, we will be back to people buying their way into the winner's
circle.

There's one difference though: People actually BUY one-design-class
boats in significant numbers.


Most of you don't feel threatened by the World Class glider. Why not
support the ideals that brought World Class into existence?

Why not simply buy a much cheaper glider that offers far better
perfomance and have fun flying Club Class or Sports Class contests?


Bye
Andreas

On 4 Oct, 18:10, Andreas Maurer wrote:

Depends on the definition of a "long task". The PW-5 offers the same
performance as an ancient Ka-6E - but today's pilots standards are way
higher.

Er-hem. An awful lot of us are still very happy, and having a lot of
sun, flying things with the performance of a Ka-6E. We just don't see
the need to spend £15,000 getting that performance ...

I wonder how things would have turned out if the Discus had been made
the World Class glider?

Ian

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 00:27:34 -0700, Ian
wrote:


Er-hem. An awful lot of us are still very happy, and having a lot of
sun, flying things with the performance of a Ka-6E. We just don't see
the need to spend £15,000 getting that performance ...

Well.... let me say it that way: No student pilot in my club would
volunteer to fly a glider with less performance than out DG-300s...

I wonder how things would have turned out if the Discus had been made
the World Class glider?

It would have been a success. Definitely.



Bye
Andreas

On 6 Oct, 11:50, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 00:27:34 -0700, Ian
wrote:

Er-hem. An awful lot of us are still very happy, and having a lot of
sun, flying things with the performance of a Ka-6E. We just don't see
the need to spend £15,000 getting that performance ...

Well.... let me say it that way: No student pilot in my club would
volunteer to fly a glider with less performance than out DG-300s...

It used to be like that at Sutton Bank. People would queue all day for
an hour in a DG-300 ... leaving the Ka-8 free for me to fly whenever I
wanted, for as long as I wanted. I wonder how much of that sort of
attitude is desire or need for performance, and how much is sheer
snobbery?

I wonder how things would have turned out if the Discus had been made
the World Class glider?

It would have been a success. Definitely.

There was a condition, wasn't there, that the plans had to be
available to multiple manufacturers? I suppose that would have put S-H
off a bit. But then, how many manufacturers ever made PW-5's?

Ian

On Sat, 06 Oct 2007 05:11:12 -0700, Ian
wrote:

It used to be like that at Sutton Bank. People would queue all day for
an hour in a DG-300 ... leaving the Ka-8 free for me to fly whenever I
wanted, for as long as I wanted. I wonder how much of that sort of
attitude is desire or need for performance, and how much is sheer
snobbery?

Our Ka-8 is still used extensively, since the students need to fly 40
hrs (total) till they are allowed to fly the 300.

There was a condition, wasn't there, that the plans had to be
available to multiple manufacturers? I suppose that would have put S-H
off a bit. But then, how many manufacturers ever made PW-5's?

Did anyone ever ask SH or LS to publish the blueprints of their
out-of-production Discus and LS-4?


Bye
Andreas

Andreas Maurer wrote:
Did anyone ever ask SH or LS to publish the blueprints of their
out-of-production Discus and LS-4?

RS no longer exists, so the LS4 molds are again being used to produce
gliders. Given the actual difference in performance, do you really
imagine that SH would be willing to risk potential market share to
another company selling "World Class" Discus clones at 50% (or even 75%)
of the cost of a Discus 2?

Marc

Ian wrote:
There was a condition, wasn't there, that the plans had to be
available to multiple manufacturers? I suppose that would have put S-H
off a bit. But then, how many manufacturers ever made PW-5's?

Two, actually, PZL Swidnik and PZL Bielsko which, despite the similarity
in names, are competing companies. There is also a third set of molds
from which one glider was built, the builder was killed in an off-field
landing accident...

Marc