The Osprey Goes to War

On Oct 5, 6:23 am, Walt wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:30?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?

Routine air-to-air refuleing is routine. It's administrative. It's
done away from harm's way. You don't seem to have analysed this very
thoroughly.

And the KISS rule always applies.

Again - use of the Osprey without escorts makes assumptions that will
kill a lot of grunts.

The whole thing is based on the idea - "Well, if this is the way it
goes, we'll be alright."

You can't -assume- when it comes to enemy interntions or capabilities.

No, but you plan based on your capabilities, your resources, and your
intelligence. And the Osprey brings a whole new set of capabilites to
the table, especially more speed. So what if you don't launch the
Ospreys when you launch the Cobras? They're all going to the same
place and time-on-target exercises are so old-hat that it's downright
silly to wring your hands over the question of whether the mission
planners can get the Ospreys to arrive in the LZ ten minutes after the
Cobras have commenced their attacks.

Plus, you also act as if there is no possibility of fast-jet cover
from sea or land, which is ludicrous. American ground forces have not
gone to war without air superiority since, what, Korea? WWII? If you
*have* to escort the Ospreys in, and all you have are Corps assets,
then task the Harriers to that role and let the Hornets team up with
the Cobras to beat up the LZ. I'm sure that the Task Force CAG will
loan a Hawkeye and a flight of Super Bugs to watch out for enemy air
threats.

On Oct 5, 8:46?am, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 6:23 am, Walt wrote:





On Oct 4, 7:30?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?

Routine air-to-air refuleing is routine. It's administrative. It's
done away from harm's way. You don't seem to have analysed this very
thoroughly.

And the KISS rule always applies.

Again - use of the Osprey without escorts makes assumptions that will
kill a lot of grunts.

The whole thing is based on the idea - "Well, if this is the way it
goes, we'll be alright."

You can't -assume- when it comes to enemy interntions or capabilities.

No, but you plan based on your capabilities, your resources, and your
intelligence. And the Osprey brings a whole new set of capabilites to
the table, especially more speed. So what if you don't launch the
Ospreys when you launch the Cobras? They're all going to the same
place and time-on-target exercises are so old-hat that it's downright
silly to wring your hands over the question of whether the mission
planners can get the Ospreys to arrive in the LZ ten minutes after the
Cobras have commenced their attacks.

Plus, you also act as if there is no possibility of fast-jet cover
from sea or land, which is ludicrous. American ground forces have not
gone to war without air superiority since, what, Korea? WWII? If you
*have* to escort the Ospreys in, and all you have are Corps assets,
then task the Harriers to that role and let the Hornets team up with
the Cobras to beat up the LZ. I'm sure that the Task Force CAG will
loan a Hawkeye and a flight of Super Bugs to watch out for enemy air
threats.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

I know some people want to argue just the sake of argument, but gee
whiz. Again, what I am saying appeared in the Marine Corps Gazette
almost 25 years ago in an article written,a s I recall, by two USMC
majors.

Walt

On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:
Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics. Saying that it can't be done because 25 years ago, it wasn't
anticipated is baloney. Heck, if you feel like you have to have a slow
eye over the battlespace, then put a pair of Predators along the route
to provide surveillance ahead of time. I bet that those Marines 25
years ago didn't factor that in, either.

Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:
Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics. Saying that it can't be done because 25 years ago, it wasn't
anticipated is baloney. Heck, if you feel like you have to have a slow
eye over the battlespace, then put a pair of Predators along the route
to provide surveillance ahead of time. I bet that those Marines 25
years ago didn't factor that in, either.


ok

Describe tactics for where the attack transport is faster and longer
ranged than the escort. Both are based on the same type of ship


Vince

On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:

Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.

Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

Wat

On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote:
On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:

Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.

Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.

On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote:



On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:

Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.

The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.

The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.

Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.

Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.

IIRC wasn't it SOP during WWII that fighter escorts would rendevous
with long range bombers at some point during the mission. They left
from different airfields, at different times, yet still often made the
rendevous and stayed with the bombers as long as they could (prior to
the long range escorts) and eventually throughout the flight while in
hostile skies.
With modern advancements in technology you would think if they could
do it back then, they can do it better now. Coordinating your escort
gunships to arrive at the LZ 10 minutes before the transports, from
different (closer) airbases, or leaving from the same base earlier,
isn't rocket science.

BB

I guess everybody has some mountain to climb.
It's just fate whether you live in Kansas or Tibet...

BlackBeard wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:50 pm, Typhoon502 wrote:
SNIP
How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.

IIRC wasn't it SOP during WWII that fighter escorts would rendevous
with long range bombers at some point during the mission. They left
from different airfields, at different times, yet still often made the
rendevous and stayed with the bombers as long as they could (prior to
the long range escorts) and eventually throughout the flight while in
hostile skies.
With modern advancements in technology you would think if they could
do it back then, they can do it better now. Coordinating your escort
gunships to arrive at the LZ 10 minutes before the transports, from
different (closer) airbases, or leaving from the same base earlier,
isn't rocket science.


Sure fighters rendezvoused with bombers.. (But exactly how accurate was
the timing? Within minutes of schedule, at the appointed place on a map?)

When the escorts joined with the bomber stream they throttled back to
the speed of the transports so the missions could stay "together".. Of
course the escorts, being faster could also fly loops etc giving better
cover..

Now reverse the equation..

The escorts (helicopter gunships) rendezvous with the V-22s..

The V-22s slow down to the cruise sped of the helicopters... also
altitude.. Which kind of defeats the justification for the V-22.

The alternative is time on target.. gunships and transports arrive at
the LZ at the same time..

which means the V-22s have to transit without any escort (Unless they
get aircraft escorts?)..

The Helicopters should arrive ahead of the V-22s to suppress the ground
before the V-22s come in (The V-22 arriving first is contraindicated)..

The big problem is..

Once the mission is launched..

If for any reason the LZ is moved... You have to contact all units to
get them to (1) turn back for re planning, or (2) schedule arrival at
the new LZ...

Trying to schedule a new rendezvous once an operation has been launched
... Well.. I'm sure it would be an interesting exercise.. Lot's of ways
things could go wrong... (If the two units -- transports and escort--
were flying together.. No such problem..)

Do the V-22s circle at altitude until the LZ is considered safe?

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:39:29 -0700, BlackBeard
wrote:

With modern advancements

How do they differ from advances? Someone invented a new word while my
back was turned.

Casady

Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 12:52 pm, Walt wrote:
On Oct 5, 9:24?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

On Oct 5, 8:54 am, Walt wrote:
Harriers and Ospreys are incompatible in their capabilities, and
Harriers can't scan the terrain and react the way a helo can.
The speed and range of the Osprey is moot because it is limited to the
speed and range of the Cobra. That is just bedrock.
The TOT scenario assumes that the Ospreys won't be escorted en route
and that is just an insupportable position. That too is bedrock.
Sorry, not buying it. You evolve your tactics to use your new
capability, you don't restrict your capability to stick to old
tactics.
Your argument is with the laws of physics, not me. Until you can get
the laws of physics to change, or the nature of war, the Osprey is a
giant useless boondoggle, at least for any missions that might involve
an enemy force.

How on earth is it a violation of laws of physics to launch Cobras at
0330 and Ospreys at 0430? And I still want to know what genius of
planning would schedule the transports to arrive in the hot zone at
the same time that the first armed aircraft are arriving.


how far away are each group
you lose surprise

Vince