The Osprey Goes to War

Typhoon502 wrote:
On Oct 5, 6:23 am, Walt wrote:
On Oct 4, 7:30?am, Typhoon502 wrote:

And yet different aircraft types all over the world fly from different
fields and meet up in a point in space and time daily. You're so
focused on making things fit the KISS rule that you're overlooking the
reality of combat aviation for the past...oh, let's be generous and
say 50 years. That's about how long routine air-to-air refueling has
been occurring, right?
Routine air-to-air refuleing is routine. It's administrative. It's
done away from harm's way. You don't seem to have analysed this very
thoroughly.

And the KISS rule always applies.

Again - use of the Osprey without escorts makes assumptions that will
kill a lot of grunts.

The whole thing is based on the idea - "Well, if this is the way it
goes, we'll be alright."

You can't -assume- when it comes to enemy interntions or capabilities.

No, but you plan based on your capabilities, your resources, and your
intelligence. And the Osprey brings a whole new set of capabilites to
the table, especially more speed. So what if you don't launch the
Ospreys when you launch the Cobras? They're all going to the same
place and time-on-target exercises are so old-hat that it's downright
silly to wring your hands over the question of whether the mission
planners can get the Ospreys to arrive in the LZ ten minutes after the
Cobras have commenced their attacks.


read what you are writing

The Ospreys are the transports, the Cobras are the close in escorts.
1) you just lost the surprise element as soon as the Cobras take off
2) the only capability the osprey brings to the table is speed in
horizontal flight. in every other variable it is inferior to a
helicopter of the same horsepower.

As a result you have completely negated the speed advantage


Plus, you also act as if there is no possibility of fast-jet cover
from sea or land, which is ludicrous. American ground forces have not
gone to war without air superiority since, what, Korea? WWII? If you
*have* to escort the Ospreys in, and all you have are Corps assets,
then task the Harriers to that role and let the Hornets team up with
the Cobras to beat up the LZ. I'm sure that the Task Force CAG will
loan a Hawkeye and a flight of Super Bugs to watch out for enemy air
threats.

Again you lose the speed advantage , the only rationale for this one
trick pony

so that newcomers understand.

The ospreys speed advantage in horizontal flight is derived from
rotating the prop rotors to horizontal flight. However this put an
absolute maximum size on both the rotor and the cabin. Both are
inefficiently small The small "prop rotors" are inefficient in vertical
flight. They are far smaller than an efficient helicopter rotor driven
by the same horsepower. So the horsepower requirements are enormous for
the lift.

Because the horsepower requirements are enormous the osprey has the
Engines of a heavy lift helicopter and the cargo capabilities of a
medium lift helicopter.

The small rotors are driven faster which creates far greater down wash
as they land.

The tilt machinery and long drive shaft required to deal with engine
failure impose a permanent weight penalty. so weight control was critical.

The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only occur
at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a modern
helicopter in every possible way.

But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload of
about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded , the
less armament

So how do you mix the two?

Vince

Vince wrote:
[snip]

The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only occur
at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a modern
helicopter in every possible way.

But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload of
about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded , the
less armament

So how do you mix the two?

Vince

Some ideas.

1.Launch from different ships/airfields in different locations. Say
one north of the target and the other south of the target.

2. Launch at different times. The Cobras in the first wave and the
Ospreys in the second wave. This also permits the ship to have a
smaller flight deck.

3. Replace the Cobras with a long range aircraft for the close in
escort role.

4. Modify some of the Ospreys to carry guns rather than people. The
Ospreys can then escort the Ospreys. Appropriate guns and missiles
will have to be determined.

Andrew Swallow

Andrew Swallow wrote:
Vince wrote:
[snip]

The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only
occur at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a
modern helicopter in every possible way.

But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload
of about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded ,
the less armament

So how do you mix the two?

Vince

Some ideas.

1.Launch from different ships/airfields in different locations. Say
one north of the target and the other south of the target.

which one is the close one ?



2. Launch at different times. The Cobras in the first wave and the
Ospreys in the second wave. This also permits the ship to have a
smaller flight deck.


no surprise and you have to be short range


3. Replace the Cobras with a long range aircraft for the close in
escort role.

Which one? the F007 Magic Fairy Dust ?

4. Modify some of the Ospreys to carry guns rather than people. The
Ospreys can then escort the Ospreys. Appropriate guns and missiles
will have to be determined.

120 million plus a pop

Vince

Again you lose the speed advantage , the only rationale for this one
trick pony

so that newcomers understand.

The ospreys speed advantage in horizontal flight is derived from
rotating the prop rotors to horizontal flight. However this put an
absolute maximum size on both the rotor and the cabin. Both are
inefficiently small The small "prop rotors" are inefficient in vertical
flight. They are far smaller than an efficient helicopter rotor driven
by the same horsepower. So the horsepower requirements are enormous for
the lift.

Because the horsepower requirements are enormous the osprey has the
Engines of a heavy lift helicopter and the cargo capabilities of a
medium lift helicopter.

The small rotors are driven faster which creates far greater down wash
as they land.

The tilt machinery and long drive shaft required to deal with engine
failure impose a permanent weight penalty. so weight control was critical.

The net result is that all of the "advantages" of the osprey only occur
at relatively long range. At short range it is inferior to a modern
helicopter in every possible way.

But the Cobra is not a long range aircraft It has a maximum payload of
about 3500 pounds of crew fuel and weapons. The more fuel loaded , the
less armament

Helos are by their nature not long range propositions.

The Osprey is a worst of both worlds proposition. It's pessimal.
Worse even than the Canadair tilt wing transports of the 60s.

Helos are poor escort platforms, unless some bizarre hover-fight is
envisioned. A WWII recip fighter would be a better escort.

Sadly, some politician's kid is going to have to die in a horrific
crash-along with thirty or so other people-before the Osprey is
euthanized.

On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:33:26 -0400, Vince wrote:

American ground forces have not
gone to war without air superiority since, what, Korea? WWII?

The guys caught in the Pacific at the beginning of WWII didn't exactly
go to war, it came to them. What was the situation in the air when the
US troopsentered WWI?

Casady