Cessna Anticipates AvGas Demise

Dan_Thomas_ wrote

The Thielert also has maintenance drawbacks. We checked
into getting some for our 172s, and to maintain them you need either
to take them to an approved repair facility, or go to Texas and take a
two-week (IIRC) course in their maintenance. And buy a bunch of
expensive tools. Any major repairs requires a removal of the engine
and sending it to the approved repair people. Can't take the head off,
for instance, and re-ring a piston or do the valves.
There's no TBO. They call it a TBR, where the whole engine is
replaced with a new one. I can't put my finger on the time but I think
it's around 2400 hours.

Everything but the TBR may be nearly a non issue, if the Thielert has the
kind of no mess reliability I have grown to expect from most diesels. Re
ringing and doing valves are things that an air cooled engine may need
often, but a diesel will probably not need until it is replaced.

Only time will tell how they hold up, once they get into the field with
sufficient numbers. I have a feeling they will be impressive.

I also suspect that the TBR thing could change, also. The factory probably
is going to get all of those replaced engines into their shop, and do a
complete tear-down, and inspection and measurement of every part in the
engine, to get a feel for areas that may need improvement, or possibly could
be made lighter.

I look forward to seeing many Thielerts in the air, and hopefully someone
else will get a product into the air, also. The jet fuel burning IC engine
is GA's best hope for the little guy, IMHO.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
Dan_Thomas_ wrote

The Thielert also has maintenance drawbacks. We checked
into getting some for our 172s, and to maintain them you need either
to take them to an approved repair facility, or go to Texas and take a
two-week (IIRC) course in their maintenance. And buy a bunch of
expensive tools. Any major repairs requires a removal of the engine
and sending it to the approved repair people. Can't take the head off,
for instance, and re-ring a piston or do the valves.
There's no TBO. They call it a TBR, where the whole engine is
replaced with a new one. I can't put my finger on the time but I think
it's around 2400 hours.

Everything but the TBR may be nearly a non issue, if the Thielert has the
kind of no mess reliability I have grown to expect from most diesels. Re
ringing and doing valves are things that an air cooled engine may need
often, but a diesel will probably not need until it is replaced.

Only time will tell how they hold up, once they get into the field with
sufficient numbers. I have a feeling they will be impressive.

I also suspect that the TBR thing could change, also. The factory probably
is going to get all of those replaced engines into their shop, and do a
complete tear-down, and inspection and measurement of every part in the
engine, to get a feel for areas that may need improvement, or possibly could
be made lighter.

I look forward to seeing many Thielerts in the air, and hopefully someone
else will get a product into the air, also. The jet fuel burning IC engine
is GA's best hope for the little guy, IMHO.

Yes, this may be the case, however the TBR has to get closer to 4,000
hours than to 2,400. Most auto and truck diesels will last at least
twice as long as similar size gas engines, so with Lycs and Contis
lasting 2,000 hours fairly routinely, the Thielert needs to at least
double that ... unless the replacement cost is equivalent to an overhaul
of a Lyc or Conti.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

Yes, this may be the case, however the TBR has to get closer to 4,000
hours than to 2,400. Most auto and truck diesels will last at least
twice as long as similar size gas engines, so with Lycs and Contis
lasting 2,000 hours fairly routinely, the Thielert needs to at least
double that ... unless the replacement cost is equivalent to an overhaul
of a Lyc or Conti.

According to http://www.centurion-engines.com/ it's currently 24,445
Euros for a replacement engine. Count in the total fuel and maintenance
cost over the life span and do the math.

On Sun, 07 Oct 2007 00:55:49 +0200, Stefan
wrote in :

According to http://www.centurion-engines.com/ it's currently 24,445
Euros for a replacement engine. Count in the total fuel and maintenance
cost over the life span and do the math.

And don't fail to factor in the US$1.4138 to the euro exchange rate.

Matt,

so with Lycs and Contis
lasting 2,000 hours fairly routinely,

If only! They mostly don't, as we all know. Think midtime top overhauls.
Think crankshaft ADs.

the Thielert needs to at least
double that ... unless the replacement cost is equivalent to an overhaul
of a Lyc or Conti.

It's in the same ballpark with 2400 TBR.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

On Sat, 6 Oct 2007 16:42:47 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote in :

Re ringing and doing valves are things that an air cooled engine may need
often, but a diesel will probably not need until it is replaced.

So the diesel is liquid cooled?

Larry Dighera wrote:

Re ringing and doing valves are things that an air cooled engine may need
often, but a diesel will probably not need until it is replaced.

So the diesel is liquid cooled?

http://www.centurion-engines.com/

It's liquid cooled, so no discussion about shock cooling anymore.
It's fully FADEC controlled, so no overheating possible.
It's geared, so a prop strike doesn't affect the engine.
It's fully FADEC controlled, so always best prop pitch to the chosen
power setting.
and and and... in short, everything I would expect from a modern engine.

Stefan wrote:

It's geared, so a prop strike doesn't affect the engine.


A geared engine doesn't eliminate, or even appreciably affect, the
results of a prop strike. You think the Cessna 175's engine is immune
from prop strike damage? Hell, even the turbine 210, whose prop isn't
even physically connected to the engine has prop strike issues. A
friend of mine has one and his pilot geared it up last year.


It's fully FADEC controlled, so always best prop pitch to the chosen
power setting.

Does it have an infinite range of prop speeds or is it like the Cirrus
that lets the pilot have two prop speeds?

Newps wrote:

It's geared, so a prop strike doesn't affect the engine.

A geared engine doesn't eliminate, or even appreciably affect, the
results of a prop strike.

From the FAQ:

4. What happens if I have a prop strike?

In case of prop strike, a costly shock-loading inspection of the engine
is not necessary. Only the propeller needs a repair and the gearbox has
to be inspected. The CENTURION 1.7 has a combined system of torsional
vibration damper and a safety clutch. It decouples the propeller from
the core engine.

It's fully FADEC controlled, so always best prop pitch to the chosen
power setting.

Does it have an infinite range of prop speeds or is it like the Cirrus
that lets the pilot have two prop speeds?

http://www.centurion-engines.com/

Stefan wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote:

Re ringing and doing valves are things that an air cooled engine may
need often, but a diesel will probably not need until it is replaced.

So the diesel is liquid cooled?

http://www.centurion-engines.com/

It's liquid cooled, so no discussion about shock cooling anymore.

So we prevent a problem that isn't really a problem.


It's fully FADEC controlled, so no overheating possible.

Automobile engines have been digitally controlled for two decades and
they still can overheat.


It's geared, so a prop strike doesn't affect the engine.

The engine still stops suddenly unless the gearbox fails or is designed
to fail before any significant acceleration is transferred to the engine.


It's fully FADEC controlled, so always best prop pitch to the chosen
power setting.

Yes, that is a nice advantage.

Matt