French block airlift of British troops to Basra

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...

Just like both sides of the
English civil war never doubted they were British.

I would doubt that any of them, with the possible exception of the king,
considered themselves anything but English, Scottish or Irish.

The idea of 'Britain' as a nation wasn't actually around to any extent then.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

William Black wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message

Just like both sides of the
English civil war never doubted they were British.

I would doubt that any of them, with the possible exception of the king,
considered themselves anything but English, Scottish or Irish.

The idea of 'Britain' as a nation wasn't actually around to any extent then.

Yes of course you are correct.

I'm displaying my lack of conciseness in reference to a blur of references
available to people who live in "The British Isles" and Britain in particular.

So many terms to choose from, yet so many mistakes to be made in historical
and geographic context.


SMH

Stephen Harding wrote:
William Black wrote:


"Stephen Harding" wrote in message


Just like both sides of the
English civil war never doubted they were British.

I would doubt that any of them, with the possible exception of the king,
considered themselves anything but English, Scottish or Irish.

The idea of 'Britain' as a nation wasn't actually around to any extent then.


Yes of course you are correct.

I'm displaying my lack of conciseness in reference to a blur of references
available to people who live in "The British Isles" and Britain in particular.

So many terms to choose from, yet so many mistakes to be made in historical
and geographic context.



This is actually a matter of quite some debate among scholars.

"Whereas originally the name Cymry seems to have shared the same
British'/`Welsh' ambiguity of Britannia, Britones and so forth, by the
late eleventh century it is likely that Cymry was used solely to denote
the Welsh' and `Wales', being distinguished more clearly from the qually
long-established terms Brython and Prydain, which denoted `Britons' and
"Britain' respectively.(108) One could perhaps go further and argue that
the change in Latin terminology both reflected and helped to reinforce
an increasing assumption on the part of Welsh literati of a need to
distinguish more sharply between the twin elements in national identity,
namely, between a British dimension which defined the Welsh in relation
to the past and the future and, on the other hand, a Welsh dimension
which linked them to a specific territorial space in the present.(109)

British or Welsh? National Identity in Twelfth-Century Wales(*).

Author/s: Huw Pryce
Issue: Sept, 2001

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m02...?term=medieval

Vince

Vince Brannigan wrote:

Stephen Harding wrote:
William Black wrote:

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message

Just like both sides of the
English civil war never doubted they were British.

I would doubt that any of them, with the possible exception of the king,
considered themselves anything but English, Scottish or Irish.

The idea of 'Britain' as a nation wasn't actually around to any extent then.

Yes of course you are correct.

I'm displaying my lack of conciseness in reference to a blur of references
available to people who live in "The British Isles" and Britain in particular.

So many terms to choose from, yet so many mistakes to be made in historical
and geographic context.

This is actually a matter of quite some debate among scholars.

"Whereas originally the name Cymry seems to have shared the same
British'/`Welsh' ambiguity of Britannia, Britones and so forth, by the
late eleventh century it is likely that Cymry was used solely to denote
the Welsh' and `Wales', being distinguished more clearly from the qually
long-established terms Brython and Prydain, which denoted `Britons' and
"Britain' respectively.(108) One could perhaps go further and argue that
the change in Latin terminology both reflected and helped to reinforce
an increasing assumption on the part of Welsh literati of a need to
distinguish more sharply between the twin elements in national identity,
namely, between a British dimension which defined the Welsh in relation
to the past and the future and, on the other hand, a Welsh dimension
which linked them to a specific territorial space in the present.(109)

British or Welsh? National Identity in Twelfth-Century Wales(*).

You're not helping me here Vince!


SMH

"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...

"Whereas originally the name Cymry seems to have shared the same
British'/`Welsh' ambiguity of Britannia, Britones and so forth, by the
late eleventh century it is likely that Cymry was used solely to denote
the Welsh' and `Wales', being distinguished more clearly from the qually
long-established terms Brython and Prydain, which denoted `Britons' and
"Britain' respectively.(108) One could perhaps go further and argue that
the change in Latin terminology both reflected and helped to reinforce
an increasing assumption on the part of Welsh literati of a need to
distinguish more sharply between the twin elements in national identity,
namely, between a British dimension which defined the Welsh in relation
to the past and the future and, on the other hand, a Welsh dimension
which linked them to a specific territorial space in the present.(109)

British or Welsh? National Identity in Twelfth-Century Wales(*).

You're left with horribly complex ideas about the pre Roman natives of the
British archipelago and their relationship with a wider Western European
culture.

Did the 'British' tribes see themselves as part of a culture that extended
beyond their shores or did they see themselves as tribal where 'the people'
ended at the forest.

In reality the idea of the 'nation state' emerged in Western Europe in the
fifteenth century, a good illustration being the Hundred Years War which
started as a fight between feudal magnates and ended as a war between
England and France.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

William Black wrote:

In reality the idea of the 'nation state' emerged in Western Europe in the
fifteenth century, a good illustration being the Hundred Years War which
started as a fight between feudal magnates and ended as a war between
England and France.

nation states had of course emerged elsewhere at earlier times. Nations
, the latin "gens "had a long-standing albeit complex development
process.

Vince

"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...


William Black wrote:

In reality the idea of the 'nation state' emerged in Western Europe in
the
fifteenth century, a good illustration being the Hundred Years War
which
started as a fight between feudal magnates and ended as a war between
England and France.

nation states had of course emerged elsewhere at earlier times. Nations
, the latin "gens "had a long-standing albeit complex development
process.

Those tended to be city states that got big or were the product of a single
man driven to build an empire.

The nation state, with the co-incident 'national identity' is later, and
still with us.

--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three

"William Black" wrote in message ...
"Vince Brannigan" wrote in message
...


William Black wrote:

In reality the idea of the 'nation state' emerged in Western Europe in
the
fifteenth century, a good illustration being the Hundred Years War
which
started as a fight between feudal magnates and ended as a war between
England and France.

nation states had of course emerged elsewhere at earlier times. Nations
, the latin "gens "had a long-standing albeit complex development
process.

Those tended to be city states that got big or were the product of a single
man driven to build an empire.

The nation state, with the co-incident 'national identity' is later, and
still with us.

The nation state is almost as old as the hills, look at Egypt,
Assyria, Israel, and Babylon of biblical times. These were established
nation states with national identities, dynastic rulers over long
periods, and are even reflected in modern states.

I would agree that the principle of Greco Roman states were city
based, although in later years the Roman state changed from the city
based concept to that of the true nation state.

Even in Europe many of the modern states were well established as
nation states by the end of the first millenia.

Peter