How do you plan the descent in emergency landing practice?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Oct 15, 12:57 pm, brtlmj wrote:
Correct. Additionally, altimeter will tend to stick with engine off.
WHAT?

Engine off - no vibration - altimeter sticks.

So what do they do during the IFR cert? Shake the plane around?

-Robert

Some of the early jets, like the Lear, came with a little vibrator
attached
to the captains altimeter, for just that purpose.

Al G

"Shirl" wrote in message
...
"Al G" wrote:
Al G, 7 engine failures on 6 aircraft, no off field
(unscheduled) landings.

7 engine failures on 6 aircraft ... in how many years? how many hours?
Just wondering because the off-the-cuff attitude expressed here (which,
having had one, I disagree with) is that "the odds are very small" of
having an actual engine failure. Hardly seems that's been the case with
you!

Bottom line is that whether it's none, one or six, small odds don't mean
that it doesn't happen or that you don't have to concern yourself with
being prepared. Even though Kirk says his recent practices have been hit
and miss, he would, by virtue of the fact that he's been *doing them*
and thinking about that process, at least have the drill and how the
airplane reacts to various things fresh in his mind -- in terms of
having some degree of preparedness, isn't that a better place to be in
the event of an actual failure than if you hadn't practiced the drill
since your last BFR (which could be as long as two years ago)?

It occurs to me after reading my post, that I missed mentioning one of
the more important points.

In an emergency, you will act just like you trained. The things you
practice, you will do automatically when faced with surprise and threat.
Practice closing the throttle a little earlier, a little further out, each
landing. You pick up a terrific feel for the attitude of a good glide. One
of my engine outs was an induction system failure at 250' on departure. The
T210 was climbing smartly with gear in transit about halfway down the
runway(4000'), when the thing just quit like you pulled the throttle to
idle. While I was looking dumbfounded at the MP and RPM, my left hand was
gently pushing over to just the right attitude for the upcoming glide. I
think for a second there I was almost in shock. Nevertheless, I did just
right. You would be amazed at what your brain can do when you've taught it
correctly. One of my students once said, "Luck is where opportunity meets
preparation".

Al G

"Al G" wrote:
It occurs to me after reading my post, that I missed mentioning one of
the more important points.

In an emergency, you will act just like you trained. The things you
practice, you will do automatically when faced with surprise and threat.
Practice closing the throttle a little earlier, a little further out, each
landing. You pick up a terrific feel for the attitude of a good glide. One
of my engine outs was an induction system failure at 250' on departure. The
T210 was climbing smartly with gear in transit about halfway down the
runway(4000'), when the thing just quit like you pulled the throttle to
idle. While I was looking dumbfounded at the MP and RPM, my left hand was
gently pushing over to just the right attitude for the upcoming glide. I
think for a second there I was almost in shock. Nevertheless, I did just
right. You would be amazed at what your brain can do when you've taught it
correctly. One of my students once said, "Luck is where opportunity meets
preparation".

I agree about what your brain can do when you've taught/programmed it
correctly. But the more time that elapses from whence you last did that
training/programming, the less automatic it becomes. You may still
remember all the items in the drill, but it may take a few extra seconds
to remember them -- in the type of emergencies we're talking about, few
extra seconds may make a huge difference in the outcome. So I think the
key phrase in what you said above is that "the things you *practice*"
will be done automatically. In order to maintain that necessary level of
automatic reaction, it has to be practiced/re-programmed with some
regularity (more often than once every other year).

"Shirl" wrote in message
...
"Al G" wrote:
It occurs to me after reading my post, that I missed mentioning one of
the more important points.

In an emergency, you will act just like you trained. The things you
practice, you will do automatically when faced with surprise and threat.
Practice closing the throttle a little earlier, a little further out,
each
landing. You pick up a terrific feel for the attitude of a good glide.
One
of my engine outs was an induction system failure at 250' on departure.
The
T210 was climbing smartly with gear in transit about halfway down the
runway(4000'), when the thing just quit like you pulled the throttle to
idle. While I was looking dumbfounded at the MP and RPM, my left hand was
gently pushing over to just the right attitude for the upcoming glide. I
think for a second there I was almost in shock. Nevertheless, I did just
right. You would be amazed at what your brain can do when you've taught
it
correctly. One of my students once said, "Luck is where opportunity meets
preparation".

I agree about what your brain can do when you've taught/programmed it
correctly. But the more time that elapses from whence you last did that
training/programming, the less automatic it becomes. You may still
remember all the items in the drill, but it may take a few extra seconds
to remember them -- in the type of emergencies we're talking about, few
extra seconds may make a huge difference in the outcome. So I think the
key phrase in what you said above is that "the things you *practice*"
will be done automatically. In order to maintain that necessary level of
automatic reaction, it has to be practiced/re-programmed with some
regularity (more often than once every other year).

Absolutely.

Al G

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 19:31:04 GMT, "JGalban via AviationKB.com"
u32749@uwe wrote:

Knowing your power-off descent rate will help.

This whole discussion sounds like an argument against power-on
approaches.

I was taught power-on by a former military pilot. Then he went off to
the airlines and my new, older, civilian-trained pilot instructed me
to go throttle all the way back at the numbers, then fly the rest of
the pattern without any more power than it took to "clear" the engine
from time to time.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com

Great advice.

The other thing I'll do is on longer, empty runways, I'll practice hot
approaches and extended flares - that is, coming over the fence fast
(100+ knots in a PA-28-140) and clean, chopping the power, and then
establishing and holding my flare, deploying flaps, and holding it to
a full-stall touchdown.

With power off landings, flexibility is life. The wider the range of
speeds your comfortable safely getting the plane down on the ground
during approach, the more options you have when it comes time to make
the choice to dive for the runway or do another 360. (assuming a long
enough runway). (yes, this is easier with "dirty" planes like my
piper, but widening your personal envelope of approach speeds in any
aircraft isn't necessarily a bad thing to do if you want options in an
emergency, no matter what the aircraft).




On Oct 14, 7:24 pm, " wrote:
On Oct 14, 7:44 pm, Kirk Ellis



wrote:
After dealing with the doctors and the FAA for the last six months I
finally got my class 3 renewed. It's been a year since I last flew.
and I can't believe how fast that time went by.

So this month I am getting back into the cockpit and in addition to
all of the standard maneuvers, I feel I especially need to work on
emergency off-field landings. I've had my ticket for over 8 years,
but financial concerns always seem to keep me from flying as much as I
would like. So I do not get to practice as much as I should. Which
brings me to the point of this post.

While doing emergency off-field landing practice I am still trying to
get some consistency in planning the descents from different altitudes
to be at 1000' agl heading downwind and abeam the touchdown point.
Seems like most of the time I was doing them last year, it was hit or
miss. (perhaps a poor choice of words).

Trying to put all the variables together to put the aircraft in the
right place at the right time on a consistent basis is still an
elusive endeaveor.

Do you experienced pilots just have a sixth sense about how to get the
aircraft exactly where it needs to be? Is it something you consciously
analyze throughout the descent or just instinctlvely do?

Kirk
PPL-ASEL

It just takes years of flight time and alot of practice. When flying
you need to consciously analyze everything from the time you untie the
plane till it's tied back down again. Best practice I have found for
spot landings is to visit an out of the way small airport and pick a
spot on the runway and fly the plane right to that spotseveral times,
using both directions if the wind is not too strong will help you
compansate for any drift/ tailwind componant, gusts,etc. The fact that
you asked the question shows your sincere desire for getting it right.
That's a good trait for a pilot.... :-)

Ben

On Oct 15, 6:16 am, Stefan wrote:
Andrew Sarangan schrieb:

No it is not a sixth sense. It is the right combination of numbers and
sight picture. Sight picture only helps when you are fairly low (ie
500' AGL) and on final approach. During downwind or base you don't
have a good sight picture to tell whether you are going to be too high
or too low. You have to rely on your altimeter and use several
'target' altitudes until you turn final.

I disagree. Of course the alitmeter can be very helpful, but only if you
know the ground elevation and if you are sure your current altimeter
setting is correct.

As this is often not the case, think in angles. Angles stay the same
regardless of height and distance.

I have to disagree. Altimeter errors are pretty minor compared to
visual errors. Even if you never changed the altimeter setting since
takeoff, you can't be more than a few tens of feet off unless you are
flying through some huge weather system, or are a long way off from
home. Unless you are in hilly terrain, ground elevation is only a
quick glance away from a sectional chart. If you are doing the landing
at an airport, then you know exactly what the elevation is.

It is true that angles stays the same regardless of height and
distance, but that only applies for a straight line. When you are on
downwind or base you are only guessing what your approach angle might
be. You are relying heavily on how high it "feels" and how far it
"feels", and how that might transpire into a good approach angle after
you turn final. Once you are on final, your argument is correct that
you should be able to do everything by the visual angle. But by that
time it is too late to make large changes, only minor changes. This is
the reason many pilots find practice engine outs to have inconsistent
results. If you set target altitude for different positions prior to
reaching final, the consistency significantly improves. I've been
teaching this way and I rarely had a student fail to make a runway on
a practice power-off approaches.

Someone else mentioned a sticking altimeter when the engine is not
running. I never had a real engine failure so I can't disagree with
that, but every airplane I have flown in shows an altitude changes
with daily pressure changes even when it is parked in the hanger. The
vibrations in a parked airplane must be much smaller than one that is
airborne, with or without an engine.

On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 12:57:30 -0700, brtlmj wrote:

Correct. Additionally, altimeter will tend to stick with engine off.
WHAT?

Engine off - no vibration - altimeter sticks.

If the altimeter is in poor enough shape it needs vibration to move
the pointer it should have been replaced long ago. The one in the Deb
is original (1959) and it still works fine.

Roger (K8RI)

B.

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:24:49 -0700, "
wrote:

On Oct 14, 7:44 pm, Kirk Ellis
wrote:
After dealing with the doctors and the FAA for the last six months I
finally got my class 3 renewed. It's been a year since I last flew.
and I can't believe how fast that time went by.

This is all I can find of the original post so I'll start from here.
I can relate what I was taught and it has served me well.


So this month I am getting back into the cockpit and in addition to
all of the standard maneuvers, I feel I especially need to work on
emergency off-field landings. I've had my ticket for over 8 years,

Here we have to discern between the need to land off field and an
emergency descent to get down as fast as possible and stay alive. I'm
assuming you are referring to a power off, off field landing and not
the cockpit fire, get this thing down NOW!

but financial concerns always seem to keep me from flying as much as I
would like. So I do not get to practice as much as I should. Which
brings me to the point of this post.

While doing emergency off-field landing practice I am still trying to
get some consistency in planning the descents from different altitudes

As Ben stated below, it takes practice and getting to know your plane
very well. Much depends on the height of the engine failure, or
emergency. Having plenty of altitude and time to consciously make
decisions is quite different from close to the ground where your
subconscious and ingrained training can save your life.

I've mentioned it before and so did some one in this thread; with an
engine failure on departure, my hands were taking care of lowering the
nose, and flaps while I was looking over the situation. Basically by
the time I could think it out I had already done what I needed to do.
Lower the nose, evaluate landing options, go full flaps, fuel valve
shut off, switches off, and I was on roll out.

to be at 1000' agl heading downwind and abeam the touchdown point.
Seems like most of the time I was doing them last year, it was hit or
miss. (perhaps a poor choice of words).

Nah, sounds appropriate.


Trying to put all the variables together to put the aircraft in the
right place at the right time on a consistent basis is still an
elusive endeaveor.

Do you experienced pilots just have a sixth sense about how to get the
aircraft exactly where it needs to be? Is it something you consciously
analyze throughout the descent or just instinctlvely do?

I'd certainly not call it a sixth sense. The term, experienced does
imply traits ingrained by...experience/practice, not some paranormal
sense.. When I took pilot proficiency training, we'd end up with AT
LEAST 3 simulated engine failures per flight. Best glide, pick a spot,
evaluate the situation and try for a restart if possible. Two full
days of intensive flying and at least one day with 10 hours of class
room. Ingrained a lot of habits.

One of the things emphasized was not to keep changing your mind after
picking a spot. Of course it's possible you discover that green field
is corn and the one a little ways over is bare, or possibly the bare
field is freshly plowed. From high up you have time to think and make
decisions. Oft times there is a tendency to over think and thus get
into trouble.


Kirk
PPL-ASEL

It just takes years of flight time and alot of practice. When flying
you need to consciously analyze everything from the time you untie the
plane till it's tied back down again. Best practice I have found for
spot landings is to visit an out of the way small airport and pick a
spot on the runway and fly the plane right to that spotseveral times,

I tend to spiral down keeping close in, always keeping the landing
site in view, and using slips where necessary. FULL flaps once the
landing spot is made.

I had this on a flight review immediately after some hood work. Hoods
off, your engine quit, find a place to land. We were at 4000, it was 5
miles to the airport, airport elevation is 630 MSL, best glide is 120
at roughly 600 fpm. I chose the airport and had to slip aggressively
to make the runway. Actually I put it down and stopped within 900 feet
of the touchdown end of the runway.

using both directions if the wind is not too strong will help you
compansate for any drift/ tailwind componant, gusts,etc. The fact that
you asked the question shows your sincere desire for getting it right.
That's a good trait for a pilot.... :-)


I think he's off to a good start.

Roger (K8RI)
Ben

It is true that angles stays the same regardless of height and
distance, but that only applies for a straight line. When you are on
downwind or base you are only guessing what your approach angle might
be. You are relying heavily on how high it "feels" and how far it
"feels", and how that might transpire into a good approach angle after
you turn final.

....and it certainly seems to work just fine. I had to demonstrate
flying and landing without an altimeter before they let me fly solo...

that, but every airplane I have flown in shows an altitude changes
with daily pressure changes even when it is parked in the hanger.

Let me clarify. An altimeter does not stick to some value and stay
there until someone shakes it. It will move - when the pressure
difference overcomes friction. Consequently, when descending, it will
always indicate that you are a bit higher than you really are.
What is the maximum error here? It obviously depends on the altimeter
in question. I do not think I have ever seen more than 50 feet.

Bartek