To Pawnee or not to Pawnee...that is the question...

bagmaker wrote:

does the tow charge cover all the a/c costs, like insurance, maintenance,
replacement after time etc?

Everything. The tow plane just pays itself, everything included. The
calculation is done on the basis of the estimated total hours over the
year and recalculated and adjusted every spring.

We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On Oct 21, 10:07 am, Michael Ash wrote:
John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Wear and tear on low tows is higher. Several clubs have a hookup
charges to account for this. One large club I know something about,
waives their active 'ops teams' members the hookup charge as an
incentive for their service. The 'ops teams' work together regularly
as scheduled. IIRC, hookup is $10/tow. So if you fly often, the
value of your service time is pretty good. IANACPA, but fee waivers
may be easier to handle than credits in a financial sense (no 1099-
misc at the end of the year?).

Another example, $8 hookup, $1.00/100ft, so a 2000ft tow is $28.00, up
from $0.85/100ft 18 months ago. Tows above 9500msl or wave tows are
charged at the service rate. This former rate was based on $125/hour
service rate with approximately $5/tow profit over tow costs,
including insurance, maintenance, tow ropes, rings, etc. The latter
rate reflects increased fuel costs. Commercial tow pilots are paid a
show up credit and small credit per launch. The engine reserve is set
aside at some rate based on 2000tbo and 350tach hours per year. Last
engine service was at about 2450 hours and cost about $35,000 for 0
time, 250hp stc, and new prop, including remove and replace. The
funds were in the engine reserve set aside. Result is about one more
tow per tach hour on same fuel burn, which meant no large adjustment
was needed to tow rates as fuel charges increased. Of course this
needs analysis at least annually. Presently, I'm pretty sure profit
is zero at the moment, though I don't think there's a subsidy unless
tow plane hours are under 350 for the year. There is no sinking fund
for fabric or other contingencies. I think the transponder was
expensed to the club.

You just have to decide what you want to include in the cost of towing
Set aside funds
Airframe reserve
Engine reserve
Maintenance reserve
Contingency reserve
Insurance

Consumables
Fuel
Oil
Tires
Brakes
Tow ropes
Weak links
Tow rings

Other
Tow pilot remuneration
Upgrades

Then looks at your history and trends and come up with the numbers and
try and forecast for the next year, 2 years, 3 years, and see if your
tows are artificially low or sensible. Artificially low priced tows
may mean that pilots are towing higher than really necessary. This
lowers the launch rate, and believe me, there's nothing that matters
more to the private owner than launch rate. Some clubs have thus
banned or limited training tows during 'soaring hours' or made other
'creative solutions'. The approach to towing and pricing of same
within a club includes more than just covering the cost.

Frank Whiteley

"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Oct 21, 10:07 am, Michael Ash wrote:
John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how
high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do
your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Wear and tear on low tows is higher. Several clubs have a hookup
charges to account for this. One large club I know something about,
waives their active 'ops teams' members the hookup charge as an
incentive for their service. The 'ops teams' work together regularly
as scheduled. IIRC, hookup is $10/tow. So if you fly often, the
value of your service time is pretty good. IANACPA, but fee waivers
may be easier to handle than credits in a financial sense (no 1099-
misc at the end of the year?).

Another example, $8 hookup, $1.00/100ft, so a 2000ft tow is $28.00, up
from $0.85/100ft 18 months ago. Tows above 9500msl or wave tows are
charged at the service rate. This former rate was based on $125/hour
service rate with approximately $5/tow profit over tow costs,
including insurance, maintenance, tow ropes, rings, etc. The latter
rate reflects increased fuel costs. Commercial tow pilots are paid a
show up credit and small credit per launch. The engine reserve is set
aside at some rate based on 2000tbo and 350tach hours per year. Last
engine service was at about 2450 hours and cost about $35,000 for 0
time, 250hp stc, and new prop, including remove and replace. The
funds were in the engine reserve set aside. Result is about one more
tow per tach hour on same fuel burn, which meant no large adjustment
was needed to tow rates as fuel charges increased. Of course this
needs analysis at least annually. Presently, I'm pretty sure profit
is zero at the moment, though I don't think there's a subsidy unless
tow plane hours are under 350 for the year. There is no sinking fund
for fabric or other contingencies. I think the transponder was
expensed to the club.

You just have to decide what you want to include in the cost of towing
Set aside funds
Airframe reserve
Engine reserve
Maintenance reserve
Contingency reserve
Insurance

Consumables
Fuel
Oil
Tires
Brakes
Tow ropes
Weak links
Tow rings

Other
Tow pilot remuneration
Upgrades

Then looks at your history and trends and come up with the numbers and
try and forecast for the next year, 2 years, 3 years, and see if your
tows are artificially low or sensible. Artificially low priced tows
may mean that pilots are towing higher than really necessary. This
lowers the launch rate, and believe me, there's nothing that matters
more to the private owner than launch rate. Some clubs have thus
banned or limited training tows during 'soaring hours' or made other
'creative solutions'. The approach to towing and pricing of same
within a club includes more than just covering the cost.

Frank Whiteley


This is the kind of logic I used to use to try to convince my wife owning an
airplane made economic sense since it "paid for itself".

The members are the club. The club is the members and it's a non-profit.
The members aren't 'customers'. If the club charges the members the true
cost of operating the tug then it is, in effect, charging itself. A tug is
a cost center, not a profit center. The fact that full cost of the tows are
paid for by the individual members doesn't make it a 'break even'
proposition.

If the tug costs the members big money then, since the members are the club,
it costs the club big money. It's financial shell game to say the tug is
a"break even" operation.

Put all the costs in one 'bucket' and take a hard look at it. You may fine
one reason why soaring isn't growing.

Bill Daniels

On Oct 21, 1:12 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Frank Whiteley" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Oct 21, 10:07 am, Michael Ash wrote:
John Smith wrote:
We charge per minute, airborne to touchdown of the tow plane. With this
method, the glider pilot is absolutely free to decide where and how
high
he wants to tow. (We have several release points, depending on the
weather, the time of day, where you want to fly and whether you want to
fight in your first climb or just release and go. And of course all our
gliders are radio equipped, so we can direct the tow pilot. (Such as in
"Try that big cloud at 10 o'clock."))

We expect the tow pilots to make the round trip as short as possible,
and they do their best. Of course there are some who do better than
others, and sometimes they manage to find thermals to accelerate the
climb, and sometimes they do not. We believe that it averages out over
the year and that charging per minute is the most transparent and
flexible method.

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur. My club, like most
(I think), charges by altitude and nothing more, except for exceptional
circumstances like aero retrieve. I think there's a lot to be said for
this, but in the back of my mind I always thought it was slightly unfair
that a fully loaded two-place trainer going to 3000ft on a hot summer day
got charged the same amount of money as a light single seater going to
3000ft on a nice cool day.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do
your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Wear and tear on low tows is higher. Several clubs have a hookup
charges to account for this. One large club I know something about,
waives their active 'ops teams' members the hookup charge as an
incentive for their service. The 'ops teams' work together regularly
as scheduled. IIRC, hookup is $10/tow. So if you fly often, the
value of your service time is pretty good. IANACPA, but fee waivers
may be easier to handle than credits in a financial sense (no 1099-
misc at the end of the year?).

Another example, $8 hookup, $1.00/100ft, so a 2000ft tow is $28.00, up
from $0.85/100ft 18 months ago. Tows above 9500msl or wave tows are
charged at the service rate. This former rate was based on $125/hour
service rate with approximately $5/tow profit over tow costs,
including insurance, maintenance, tow ropes, rings, etc. The latter
rate reflects increased fuel costs. Commercial tow pilots are paid a
show up credit and small credit per launch. The engine reserve is set
aside at some rate based on 2000tbo and 350tach hours per year. Last
engine service was at about 2450 hours and cost about $35,000 for 0
time, 250hp stc, and new prop, including remove and replace. The
funds were in the engine reserve set aside. Result is about one more
tow per tach hour on same fuel burn, which meant no large adjustment
was needed to tow rates as fuel charges increased. Of course this
needs analysis at least annually. Presently, I'm pretty sure profit
is zero at the moment, though I don't think there's a subsidy unless
tow plane hours are under 350 for the year. There is no sinking fund
for fabric or other contingencies. I think the transponder was
expensed to the club.

You just have to decide what you want to include in the cost of towing
Set aside funds
Airframe reserve
Engine reserve
Maintenance reserve
Contingency reserve
Insurance

Consumables
Fuel
Oil
Tires
Brakes
Tow ropes
Weak links
Tow rings

Other
Tow pilot remuneration
Upgrades

Then looks at your history and trends and come up with the numbers and
try and forecast for the next year, 2 years, 3 years, and see if your
tows are artificially low or sensible. Artificially low priced tows
may mean that pilots are towing higher than really necessary. This
lowers the launch rate, and believe me, there's nothing that matters
more to the private owner than launch rate. Some clubs have thus
banned or limited training tows during 'soaring hours' or made other
'creative solutions'. The approach to towing and pricing of same
within a club includes more than just covering the cost.

Frank Whiteley

This is the kind of logic I used to use to try to convince my wife owning an
airplane made economic sense since it "paid for itself".

The members are the club. The club is the members and it's a non-profit.
The members aren't 'customers'. If the club charges the members the true
cost of operating the tug then it is, in effect, charging itself. A tug is
a cost center, not a profit center. The fact that full cost of the tows are
paid for by the individual members doesn't make it a 'break even'
proposition.

If the tug costs the members big money then, since the members are the club,
it costs the club big money. It's financial shell game to say the tug is
a"break even" operation.

Put all the costs in one 'bucket' and take a hard look at it. You may fine
one reason why soaring isn't growing.

Bill Daniels

A club is also a member services organization and there's nothing that
prevents a non-profit organization from making a profit. It's what
you do with the profit that matters, that is, there can be no private
benefit and the profit must go towards that stated purpose of the
organization. Some clubs offer glider rides to the public for a fee
as a means of capital accumulation. This is fine as long as it's
properly done. The NFL is a non-profit organization.

If a member avails themselves of specific services (assuming they have
some choice), then any excess over costs benefits the membership as a
whole. In my opinion, most services should be at least revenue
neutral, though subsidies through dues are likely pretty common (many
clubs do not charge extra for glider use but limit seat time to 1 or 2
hours). Careful planning for fixed costs, operating costs,
replacement costs, and a vision of where a club wants to be in 5, 10,
or 20 years should allow for some progress. Too many clubs use knee-
jerk response management however. I know of one club operating at the
same field as a commercial operator. If the club tow pilot does not
show up on scheduled club days, members take tows from the commercial
operator. It's my understanding that the member is then credited back
the difference between the price of a club tow and the commercial
tow. Furthermore, I understand the tow pilots are the only members
that get a vote and pay no dues. Now, I'm not trying to tell any club
how to conduct its business, but this doesn't seem a particularly
appropriate way to use club capital. More curiously, how did such a
policy develop? That club also had sold one glider and was
considering selling a second due to underutilization. Training had
dwindled to one day per week. What's really going on there?

Now, were a club to offer a diversity of launch means, ground launch
and aero tow, as equally available, then bucket subsidies would
probably need to come into the business model for getting aloft.
Certainly there would be pressure from those wanting affordable aero
tows.

Frank Whiteley

Bill Daniels wrote:

If the tug costs the members big money then, since the members are the club,
it costs the club big money. It's financial shell game to say the tug is
a"break even" operation.

I don't get your logic. *Somebody* has to pay the tug. If it isn't the
pilot behind the tug, then it's the club as a whole. Do you advocate
that the non-flying pilots should subsidize the flying ones? Do you
advocate low tow rates subsidized by high club membership fees? Do you
think high membership fees would lead to a growth in club membership?

"John Smith" wrote in message
. ..
Bill Daniels wrote:

If the tug costs the members big money then, since the members are the
club, it costs the club big money. It's financial shell game to say the
tug is a"break even" operation.

I don't get your logic. *Somebody* has to pay the tug. If it isn't the
pilot behind the tug, then it's the club as a whole. Do you advocate that
the non-flying pilots should subsidize the flying ones? Do you advocate
low tow rates subsidized by high club membership fees? Do you think high
membership fees would lead to a growth in club membership?

Of course it makes sense for individual members to pay for the services they
recieve. That's just the nuts and bolts of club finances. It's up to a
club membership to decide how they allocate costs and fees. Whatever they
choose, there's no right or wrong answer as long as it's legal and the
majority of the membership agrees. Having one activity subsidize another is
fine if the membership agrees.

But don't stop with the nuts and bolts, stand back and look at the big
picture the way a prospecitve new member looks at it. They ask, "What's it
going to cost me to fly gliders with this organization?" The cost of tows
is a big part of the answer. If the total cost is too high, they go another
direction. If that happens too often, the remaining members are burdened
with a bigger and bigger share of the cost of a tug.

I'm just saying look at it both ways and don't try to sweep the real costs
of operating a tug under the rug by saying, "Well, it pays for itself so
we're OK." If a smaller and smaller number of members are paying the cost,
you're not OK, you're in a financial death spiral.

A winch can be used to generate a substantial revenue stream while reducing
the individual members launch cost - a big win-win. That revenue stream can
be used to subsidize a tug. For sure, it won't work the other way around.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

But don't stop with the nuts and bolts, stand back and look at the big
picture the way a prospecitve new member looks at it. They ask, "What's it
going to cost me to fly gliders with this organization?" The cost of tows
is a big part of the answer. If the total cost is too high, they go another

The total cost is always the same, there's no free lunch. If your tows
are too cheap, then the membership fees must be higher, unless you have
some magic money print press in your basement. I strongly believe that
high membership fees are much more prohibitive for new members than tow
fees.

My club bills the true towing cost. On the other hand, we don't bill the
glider usage by time but by the membership fee, because glider ownership
costs the same whether the glider is flown or not.

A winch can be used to generate a substantial revenue stream while reducing
the individual members launch cost - a big win-win.

You don't have to convince me of the advantages of a winch, after all,
I'm a winch driver. And I just *love* those catapult take offs. But as I
said in another post, you can't go cross country from the winch at every
site. At ours, for example, we mostly can't, so we use the winch mainly
for training. As landing practice is a major part of the student
training, a winch does reduce training cost tremendously. As you only
need one launch for an 8 hour cross country flight, tow cost isn't such
a big problem for cross country flying.

Michael Ash wrote:

That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur.

That's life. There is no such thing as a pricing system which is fair
for everybody in all circumstances.

My club, like most (I think), charges by altitude and nothing more,

Most clubs I know charge by time. I guess this is regional culture.

Anyway, enough commentary, I have an actual question: roughly what do your
costs work out to for, say, 1500, 2000, and 3000ft tows? Obviously it'll
depend a lot on conditions but I imagine you have some idea of what your
tow will cost before you launch even if it's not exact.

Well, we try very hard not to think about it... :-/

Seriously, it's hard to tell. There is no such thing as a tow to 1500,
2000 and 3000ft at our site (except for student training). There are
tows to certain known or estimated thermals.

The cheapest tow is to a hill right besides the airfield. On reasonable
days you'll find a thermal there on one side or the other. This tow will
be to approximately 2000ft. (You decide when to release: If you feel the
thermals are strong and reliable and forming low, release earlier, if
you think that you have to try and and search and work weak 100 fpm
thermals which form only at altitude, release later.) A "normal" tow
there is about $35 to $40. Caveat: Those thermals form somewhat late in
the day and you will lose a lot of time if you want to go cross country.

If you want to launch earlier and/or plan to do a big flight, you are
better off towing to some known thermically active regions farther away.
This will cost you about twice as much, but not because of altitude, but
because of distance. You see, the "altitude price system" just wouldn't
work here.

John Smith wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
That is an interesting way to pay, although it seems unfortunate that I'd
have to pay extra for a go around if one should occur.

That's life. There is no such thing as a pricing system which is fair
for everybody in all circumstances.

Certainly, just pointing out a small problem.

My club, like most (I think), charges by altitude and nothing more,

Most clubs I know charge by time. I guess this is regional culture.

Interesting. In looking around at other clubs and commercial operations,
the ones I've seen have always quoted prices for various altitudes.
Time-based pricing has always been for retrieves from what I've seen. Of
course I haven't looked at a huge number of places either.

If you want to launch earlier and/or plan to do a big flight, you are
better off towing to some known thermically active regions farther away.
This will cost you about twice as much, but not because of altitude, but
because of distance. You see, the "altitude price system" just wouldn't
work here.

Oh, it would work, maybe just not as well.

Nothing says you can't keep climbing as you tow. You'll get charged for
all the extra altitude. My club has no official limit on how high you can
tow, you just get charged for wherever you get off. If you want to tow to
some place far away, you can tell the tow pilot what your plan is and go
straight out until you get there, then pay your fee for however high you
were when you arrived. Maybe this will be higher than you'd like, but it
does you no harm to start out with too much altitude (unless you're going
for a badge, I suppose). Although I haven't really seen anyone do this;
where I fly, a 3000ft straight out tow seems to be about as far as anyone
likes to go. We do occasionally do higher tows, but not in order to gain
more distance.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software