Meeting to discuss FLARM in the USA

Aviation Consumer's current issue has an article on traffic-detection
systems. It points out that mode S is already going away and ADS-B in
only just beginning to be installed. and that a defect of ADS-B is
that several seconds may elapse between the time aircraft A replies to
the radar facility, the facility processes the signal and calculates
vector information, and then broadcasts this. So this isn't going to
help as much as we'd like in gaggles, never mind that it won't be
available everywhere for a long time.

It sounds as though FLARM is available and functional. It might be
possible for pilots to cooperatively use it without an FAA
imprimateur, though the FTC will have jurisdiction over the use of
frequency.

Dan

On Oct 26, 4:53 pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
As someone else noted, ADS-B is purely a way to broadcast the position,
speed, direction, and altitude of all aircraft. ...

...we need more intelligence in glider specific ADS-B units,
so we can determine if there is a collision threat in
a gaggle, or if there is an orderly structure to the gliders in the thermal
that does not pose any issues....

On Oct 25, 1:57 pm, "Mike Schumann" wrote:
We don't need FLARM. What we need is a low cost version of ADS-B that is
affordable for glider pilots.

I agree.

But... I doubt ADS-B will have the smarts to provide intelligent
warnings and ignore false alerts due to the close proximity we fly in.

-Tom

danlj wrote:
Aviation Consumer's current issue has an article on traffic-detection
systems. It points out that mode S is already going away and ADS-B in
only just beginning to be installed. and that a defect of ADS-B is
that several seconds may elapse between the time aircraft A replies to
the radar facility, the facility processes the signal and calculates
vector information, and then broadcasts this. So this isn't going to
help as much as we'd like in gaggles, never mind that it won't be
available everywhere for a long time.

I haven't read the article, but the above is only partially correct.
This only refers to the case of an ADS-B equipped aircraft detecting a
nearby Mode C or S equipped aircraft. When two ADS-B (more correctly,
UAT) equipped aircraft are in proximity, they communicate directly with
minimal delay, the ground network and radar facilities are not involved.

It sounds as though FLARM is available and functional. It might be
possible for pilots to cooperatively use it without an FAA
imprimateur, though the FTC will have jurisdiction over the use of
frequency.

If a FLARM-like device using an FCC approved frequency was available, we
could use it without FAA approval. But, our glider population density
is much lower than Europe, except in a few areas, and other aircraft are
a hazard these days in many areas. ADS-B UAT is a FLARM-like device
with regulatory issues that make it difficult to develop a low cost
device. It seems to me that the best thing to do is attack the
regulatory problem, so that gliders, balloons, light sport aircraft,
etc. can all participate in the system at a lower cost...

Marc

The discussion of using FLARM in the USA is just so much self
flagulation. I have flown in France and used FLARM. A very nice,
compact, and simple system that is easy to understand while flying.
The primary problem is exactly the same as gliders having a
transponder in the USA. There are many, many gliders flying around
the Alps that do not have FLARM. You get comfortable with responding
to the signals from FLARM and then WHAM...there is a glider headed
right at your nose and no FLARM !

I feel that for the USA it would be a much better course to encourage
the installation of transponders and development of systems that use
transponder technology to do the work of FLARM. These chat groups
seem dominated by people constantly arguing that they won't buy a
transponder because a new system is just over the horizon whether it
is ADS-B or Mode S. The reality that we all see is that the existing
system is going to be it for some time. By working with the existing
system you get gliders to become full fledged members of the aviation
community that exists today. You become better friends with other
traffic because they can see you on their collision avoidance
systems. Having FLARM means you are still invisable to commercial
traffic and the air traffic controllers. It means that instead of
having just two groups of gliders in the USA (with or without
transponders) you create a microscopic group that have FLARM and are
still invisable to the air traffic control system.

Flying around Reno became DRAMATICALLY better after installing a
transponder. AIr traffic control sees you and directs all of their
traffic away from you without any effort on the glider pilot's part.
Commercial traffic and others with "fish finders" happily see you and
avoid without any sweat being shed. Work should be put into small,
modestly expensive collision avoidance systems that use the existing
transponders.

Guy Acheson "DDS"

wrote:
Work should be put into small,
modestly expensive collision avoidance systems that use the existing
transponders.

Do you mean something like the Zaon XRX (modestly expensive at a list
price of $1800) or the Zaon MRX ($550)?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org