Singapore down selects three fighters...

Rafale has also supercruise.


"John Cook" a écrit dans le message de
news: ...
On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:59:56 -0800, "Rick & Andrea"
wrote:

I was part of the Singapore eval last year of the Strike Eagle, and they
aren't really keen on having a 2 seat fighter. They had some very
interesting philosophies about what they'd do with the rear cockpit.


What were some of the things they were looking for, if you can tell
us...

just interested ;-)

"David Bromage" wrote in message
. ..
phil hunt wrote:
If the want a counter to the Su-30, wouldn't something more modern
than the F-15 be approprate?

How about an F-15K?

Cheers
David



John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

Not the kind of aircraft they need this time.
Nor as Mirage 2000-5


"Frank Vaughan" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
In message ,
ess (phil hunt) wrote:

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:51:43 +1000, John Cook
wrote:
Singapore has down selected the F15, Rafale and the Eurofighter
typhoon for their next generation fighter....

The F16, F18E/f and Sukhoi Su-30MK were rejected.

I'm surprised the F-16 was ruled out, sincre Singapore already
operates that plane.

Well, they probably need something that does not routinely fall
out of the sky, like the Lawn Dart is regularly doing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Frank Vaughan "Spectre Gunner"
Vietnam Veteran -- AC-130E Spectre Gunships
16th Special Operations Squadron (USAF)
"We were winning when I left."
Visit my Gunship page at: www.gunships.org

"phil hunt" wrote in message

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 01:48:52 -0600, Scott Ferrin
wrote:
Well it's good to dream but I'd say wait until the F-35C is flying
before making that judgement. That big wing, 56k lbs thrust (so
says RR)

Who's RR? The figure I've seen for thrust is 35 klbf (15900 kgf),

Rolls-Royce. They're working with GE on the F136 engine, which is the
alternative to the Pratt Whitney F135 specified for the first JSF batches.
The 56,000-lb figure came from Rolls-Ryce a couple of years ago; everyone
else is sticking to "40,000-lb class" for both F135 and F136.


The AIM-9X will have a shorter range than the Meteor (I'm assuming
that Singapore would buy it, it seems quite logical if they are
going for an air superiority fighter). S

Here you're comapring apples and oranges. AIM-9X is a dogfight missile; the
Eurofighter counterpart is ASRAAM. Meteor is a BVR missile; the US
counterpart is AMRAAM (which is shorter ranged) or one of several proposed
AMRAAM gowth options.

o the Typhoons would be able
to get the first shot in (not only that, since they are faster than
the F-35, they have the ability to decide at what range the
engagement takes place). If the engagement does get to close range,
the Typhoon has (according to figures I've seen) a better thrust to
weight ratio and lower wing loading. F-35 has thrust vectoring, but
late models of the Typhoon might too.

JSF does not have thrust vectoring, the tail nozzle moves only for vertical
flight.

Typhoon is dynamically
unstable, which should increase its maneouvrability.

But are like to the be dynamically unstable.

(BTW, is it right that the F-35's weapons bay is too small to fit in
some weapons like ASRAAM? My understanding is ASRAAM has a larger
diameter than AIM-9X, giving it potential for greater
range/acceleration).

The bays are designed for AMRAAM and 2000-lb JDAMS. ASRAAM will certainly
fit, but Meteor may not.

--�
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"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
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On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:44:07 -0700, Harry Andreas wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

AESA,

What's this?

Active Array radar. Higher performance and more versatile than
mechanicaly scanned planar arrays. More reliable too.

At the moment Typhoon uses the CAPTOR radar, but this may well
change to the AMSAR active array radar in future. There's also the
possibility of a conformal smart skin array of sensors, firther
increasing radar capability.

360 degree IRST,

My understanding is Eurofighter has an IRST too.

the 360 part is very important.

Possibly. In any case, I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to add a
reverse-looking one to Typhoon, perhaps on a wingtip pod.

stealth, -9X,

The AIM-9X will have a shorter range than the Meteor (I'm assuming
that Singapore would buy it, it seems quite logical if they are
going for an air superiority fighter). So the Typhoons would be able
to get the first shot in (not only that, since they are faster than
the F-35, they have the ability to decide at what range the
engagement takes place). If the engagement does get to close range,
the Typhoon has (according to figures I've seen) a better thrust to
weight ratio and lower wing loading. F-35 has thrust vectoring, but
late models of the Typhoon might too. Typhoon is dynamically
unstable, which should increase its maneouvrability.

You seem fixated on close range combat.

I don't think so; I did specifically say that long range missiles
would be used first, but there's a possibility of close range
combat -- I've no idea how high that possibility is.

Postulating a South Asia Typhoon v F-35 engagement, what makes
you think the more stealthy F-35 won't use NCTR then shoot the
Typhoon in the face BVR with an AIM-120?

I don't know what NCTR is, so I won't discuss that. If the F-35 is
switching its radar on to detect the Typhoon, then the Typhoon will
presumably be able to detect this (the signal will be
billions of times stronger at the Typhoon than what's received back
at the F-35), so I am doubtful of the possibility of the F-35
sneaking up on the Typhoon undetected.

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people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
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to it and reversed the last two letters).

"phil hunt" wrote in message


Would the F-35 even get close enough to fire an AMRAAM? Meteor is
longer range, and since the Typhoon is faster it could (depending on
the tactical situation) decide whether to break contact.

Depends a lot on radar capability and intiial detection rhage. if the JSF
is significantly stealthier than the Typhoon , it could get clsoer before
benig vulnerabel to counter-fire. That's one part fo the logic of the
F/A-22 and MARAAM -- put the complexity ni the airframe, not the missile.


--�
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"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
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On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:05:02 -0500, Alan Minyard wrote:
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:17:10 +0200, guy wastiaux
wrote:

Rafale also has an IRST : it's called OSF : it's got a true IRST and
another tracking device (dunno how it's called though. It ressembles a
bit the one used on initial production F-14As). Besides, Eurofigther
isn't as versatile as the Rafale, considering mainly ATG capability.
Otherwise, the Eurofighter seems to be like THE air defence fighter.

Neither Rafale nor Eurofighter is even in the same league with the
F-22 and F-35. Eurofighter and Rafae are capable aircraft, but not
capable of living in the same sky with the -22 or -35.

Then why isn't Singapore considering the F-22 or F-35?

--
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people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(My real email address would be if you added 275
to it and reversed the last two letters).

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:19:43 +0200, Mike wrote:
Rafale has also supercruise.

I ewasn't aware of that -- do you have a cite?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(My real email address would be if you added 275
to it and reversed the last two letters).

Rafale may have a slight advantage.
http://www.sedb.com/edbcorp/sg/en_uk...w__volume.html
REGIONAL FOCUS
Research pact with France
The first day of the Asia Pacific Conference yesterday saw France and
Singapore lift their already close defence relations to a new plane with
the signing of an agreement for joint studies in aerospace and radar
technology. Paris-based defence giant, Thales, will follow suit with a
similar agreement that will be inked today. This will pave the way for
Thales to set up a research lab - its first Asian-based research
facility - in Singapore. Sealing the deal, the first between France and
an Asia-Pacific country, on the sidelines of the defence talks tagged it
with more significance than had it been held at any other time. For
starters, the memorandum of understanding signed between the Defence
Science and Technology Agency (DSTA) and Onera, France's leading
aerospace research agency, capped two years of talks between France and
Singapore on the way defence technology research between the two
countries could be strengthened. Some $2 million will be spent initially
to set up a lab outside Paris. Defence officials said it was a visible
demonstration of Singapore's commitment to broadening its defence
cooperation with partners in Europe, to complement strong ties with America.
Adapted from The Straits Times 31 May 2003

Mike wrote:

Like in Korea last year,it will may depend on "diplomatic questions",then
F.15 is on the way.
But like in Korea last year also,Rafale will certainly win technical
evaluations.So wait and see.



"David Bromage" a écrit dans le
message de news: ...


AL wrote:
It is all about putting all your eggs in one basket. Everybody knows
about the Congress idiosyncrasies. Not to mention there may be plans


to


do some kind of upgrade from type 52 F16 to near type 60.

IMHO, it is going to be a tossup between Rafale and the Typhoon. F15


is


too complicated and the road map is too short to operate.

I think the F-15 has a very good chance. Bear in mind their next door
neighbours are getting Su-30s.

Cheers
David








--
AL
New anti-terrorism tool, "Fly naked"
http://www.alfredivy.per.sg

Actually the F-35 is serious future contender. Probably as a F-16
replacement. F-22 well wistfull thinking?

phil hunt wrote:

Then why isn't Singapore considering the F-22 or F-35?




--
AL
New anti-terrorism tool, "Fly naked"
http://www.alfredivy.per.sg

Another stickler, will be the usability of current stock US weapons on
European aircraft. Typhoon is certified (Rafale?) to launch AIM-120.
Not too sure if the US is going to block the capability to ensure the
success of F-15 sale.



Harry Andreas wrote:

In article ,
wrote:



On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 12:07:05 -0700, Harry Andreas


wrote:


In article , AL wrote:



It is all about putting all your eggs in one basket. Everybody knows
about the Congress idiosyncrasies. Not to mention there may be plans to
do some kind of upgrade from type 52 F16 to near type 60.


Not likely. They may upgrade the block 52s but not to near block 60.
The airframe and systems are too different to make it economical.




IMHO, it is going to be a tossup between Rafale and the Typhoon. F15 is
too complicated and the road map is too short to operate. But Rafale
programme needs more money and the Typhoon roll out rate isn't exactly
fast.


It's all about loiter time and weapons. In a way, this almost mirrors the
Korean decision.
The fact that they operate F-16s becomes a plus for the F-15 wrt
engine support.


If commonality of parts was a strong criterion, they'd go for more
F-16s.



Like the Koreans, I think they want loiter time plus 2 engines.
While the Koreans worry about mountainous terrain and no airfields,
Singapore worries about lots of water and no airfields.
The Koreans of course, wanted a ground attack multi-role a/c
while Singapore looks to want air superiority, but their concerns are
similar.




--
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New anti-terrorism tool, "Fly naked"
http://www.alfredivy.per.sg