Singapore down selects three fighters...

It's for the same reason that people shouldn't use Microsoft
software while they continue to attempt to lock-in their customers:
because every purchase carries a hidden cost of forcing the customer
to purchase again from the same supplier.

Yep! No technology lock-in using say Sun Solaris or HP/UX is there? If I use
Windows I can get top of the line hardware from HP (Compaq), Dell , IBM,
Gateway and who knows how many others. I can switch to another OS such as
Red Hat Linux. If I use a proprietary Unix solution I will also be using a
proprietary hardware platform. Twice the technology lock-in for the price.

Of course no European company would be guilty of that now would they.

"The war with Boeing will continue to intensify until Airbus has 100 percent
of the worldwide commercial market" Former Airbus Industrie Managing
Director Jean Pierson 1992.

If you read the company releases, CAPTOR is actually performing a lot better
than expected, and at a level comparable with todays AESA radars.
Supposedly (and I know very little about radars) it will keep itself in
service for a lot longer than previously thought, and may just jump to the
next big technical leap?

"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:44:07 -0700, Harry Andreas
wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

AESA,

What's this?

Active Array radar. Higher performance and more versatile than
mechanicaly scanned planar arrays. More reliable too.

At the moment Typhoon uses the CAPTOR radar, but this may well
change to the AMSAR active array radar in future. There's also the
possibility of a conformal smart skin array of sensors, firther
increasing radar capability.

360 degree IRST,

My understanding is Eurofighter has an IRST too.

the 360 part is very important.

Possibly. In any case, I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to add a
reverse-looking one to Typhoon, perhaps on a wingtip pod.

stealth, -9X,

The AIM-9X will have a shorter range than the Meteor (I'm assuming
that Singapore would buy it, it seems quite logical if they are
going for an air superiority fighter). So the Typhoons would be able
to get the first shot in (not only that, since they are faster than
the F-35, they have the ability to decide at what range the
engagement takes place). If the engagement does get to close range,
the Typhoon has (according to figures I've seen) a better thrust to
weight ratio and lower wing loading. F-35 has thrust vectoring, but
late models of the Typhoon might too. Typhoon is dynamically
unstable, which should increase its maneouvrability.

You seem fixated on close range combat.

I don't think so; I did specifically say that long range missiles
would be used first, but there's a possibility of close range
combat -- I've no idea how high that possibility is.

Postulating a South Asia Typhoon v F-35 engagement, what makes
you think the more stealthy F-35 won't use NCTR then shoot the
Typhoon in the face BVR with an AIM-120?

I don't know what NCTR is, so I won't discuss that. If the F-35 is
switching its radar on to detect the Typhoon, then the Typhoon will
presumably be able to detect this (the signal will be
billions of times stronger at the Typhoon than what's received back
at the F-35), so I am doubtful of the possibility of the F-35
sneaking up on the Typhoon undetected.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(My real email address would be if you added 275
to it and reversed the last two letters).

Thats the same as the Harrier ziff (sp?) manoeuvre?


"phil hunt" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:25:02 GMT, Thomas Schoene
wrote:

JSF does not have thrust vectoring, the tail nozzle moves only for
vertical
flight.

I stand corrected. What about the VTOL varient of the F-35 -- would
it be possible to thrust downwards while in level flight, as a
combat maneouvre?


--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(My real email address would be if you added 275
to it and reversed the last two letters).

, they have the ability to decide at what range the
engagement takes place). If the engagement does get to close range,
the Typhoon has (according to figures I've seen) a better thrust to
weight ratio and lower wing loading.

Depends. There is talk of putting the big navy wing on the land
version if someone wants it.

Presumably the land version doesn't use the bigger wing because
they are drawbacks to doing so?

Weight and apparently they think the big wing isn't necessary. Weight
is the main issue for the STOVL version.



That plus the uncertainty of how
powerful the engine will be makes this all speculation.

Indeed.

F-35 has thrust vectoring, but
late models of the Typhoon might too. Typhoon is dynamically
unstable, which should increase its maneouvrability.

You have to keep stealth in mind. The Typhoon likely wouldn't get to
USE it's superior manueverability (assuming it will have it).

If the F-35 is using its radar, the Typhoon will probably be able to
detect it. If neither plane is using radar, there is no advantage to
stealth.

That's assuming the Typhoon can detect an LPI radar.

In article ,
wrote:

They'd be well advised not to fire on a Typhoon either, since it's
better than anything the USN is likely to have for some time (and I
think the F-35C falls in that category).

Is it better than an Amraam?

Would the F-35 even get close enough to fire an AMRAAM? Meteor is
longer range, and since the Typhoon is faster it could (depending on
the tactical situation) decide whether to break contact.

Speed doesn't matter as much when the opposing platform is stealthy.
If you can't "see" it you can't shoot it, so speed does not dictate the
engagement anymore.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 14:44:07 -0700, Harry Andreas
wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

AESA,

What's this?

Active Array radar. Higher performance and more versatile than
mechanicaly scanned planar arrays. More reliable too.

At the moment Typhoon uses the CAPTOR radar, but this may well
change to the AMSAR active array radar in future. There's also the
possibility of a conformal smart skin array of sensors, firther
increasing radar capability.

Conformal arrays are so far in the future as to be effectively a
daydream. Not to mention the impact on the airframe, fuselage,
and systems will be so dramatic as to require almost a new platform.
I don't see it as being retro-fittable.


360 degree IRST,

My understanding is Eurofighter has an IRST too.

the 360 part is very important.

Possibly. In any case, I imagine it wouldn't be difficult to add a
reverse-looking one to Typhoon, perhaps on a wingtip pod.

Typhoon is already a very crowded aircraft. It may be more difficult
than you imagine.


stealth, -9X,

The AIM-9X will have a shorter range than the Meteor (I'm assuming
that Singapore would buy it, it seems quite logical if they are
going for an air superiority fighter). So the Typhoons would be able
to get the first shot in (not only that, since they are faster than
the F-35, they have the ability to decide at what range the
engagement takes place). If the engagement does get to close range,
the Typhoon has (according to figures I've seen) a better thrust to
weight ratio and lower wing loading. F-35 has thrust vectoring, but
late models of the Typhoon might too. Typhoon is dynamically
unstable, which should increase its maneouvrability.

You seem fixated on close range combat.

I don't think so; I did specifically say that long range missiles
would be used first, but there's a possibility of close range
combat -- I've no idea how high that possibility is.

Postulating a South Asia Typhoon v F-35 engagement, what makes
you think the more stealthy F-35 won't use NCTR then shoot the
Typhoon in the face BVR with an AIM-120?

I don't know what NCTR is, so I won't discuss that. If the F-35 is
switching its radar on to detect the Typhoon, then the Typhoon will
presumably be able to detect this (the signal will be
billions of times stronger at the Typhoon than what's received back
at the F-35), so I am doubtful of the possibility of the F-35
sneaking up on the Typhoon undetected.

NCTR - Non Cooperative Target Recognition

Radar has many modes, and new ones are becoming availabe.
That's all I'll say about that.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:31:21 +0800, AL wrote:
Actually the F-35 is serious future contender. Probably as a F-16
replacement.

Singapore currently operates the F-16. They are thinking of buying a
new plane, call it X. If they then purchase the F-35, they'll have 3
fighters operational, F-16, X, and F-35, at least of the period that
F-16 is being replaced.

I suppose they might do this, but to me it seems an unnecessary
lack of standardisation.

Singapore, like everyone else, is replacing their F-16s with F-35s.
It will be a very long time before Singapore gets any F-35s.
In the meantime they want something that has range and a good
enough avoinics suite to match against the neighbor's MiGs.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

Excuse my ignornance, but whats an LPI radar? ( I only work with missiles)

"Scott Ferrin" wrote in message
...

, they have the ability to decide at what range the
engagement takes place). If the engagement does get to close range,
the Typhoon has (according to figures I've seen) a better thrust to
weight ratio and lower wing loading.

Depends. There is talk of putting the big navy wing on the land
version if someone wants it.

Presumably the land version doesn't use the bigger wing because
they are drawbacks to doing so?

Weight and apparently they think the big wing isn't necessary. Weight
is the main issue for the STOVL version.



That plus the uncertainty of how
powerful the engine will be makes this all speculation.

Indeed.

F-35 has thrust vectoring, but
late models of the Typhoon might too. Typhoon is dynamically
unstable, which should increase its maneouvrability.

You have to keep stealth in mind. The Typhoon likely wouldn't get to
USE it's superior manueverability (assuming it will have it).

If the F-35 is using its radar, the Typhoon will probably be able to
detect it. If neither plane is using radar, there is no advantage to
stealth.

That's assuming the Typhoon can detect an LPI radar.

well Italy is doing so by using F-16As for Air Defence, replacing
Tornados F3s, as the air force is waiting for the Typhoon. If Italy is
doing it, then why not Singapour ?

phil hunt wrote:
I suppose they might do this, but to me it seems an unnecessary
lack of standardisation.



--
Guy Wastiaux
aka FauCon PoiLu
visit me @ http://guy.4002.org/
mail me @ faucon.Wastiaux @ laposte.net

"guy wastiaux" wrote in message
...
well Italy is doing so by using F-16As for Air Defence, replacing
Tornados F3s, as the air force is waiting for the Typhoon. If Italy is
doing it, then why not Singapour ?


Actually Italy are a development partner for Typhoon and
have ordered 120 aircraft.

Keith