SeeYou Mobile: How Steep the Learning Curve?

I am a huge fan of the FREE XCSoar program, its really good.

That said, I recommend you dont start any flight (or sim) without first going into the memory area of the little god-box thing and stopping all other programs, prior to firing up your flightware.

This little tidbit eliminated most of my screen-freeze problems.

Stick with it, they are a great time waster!

bagger

My iPAQ is dedicated to whatever soaring app I end up using; there's
nothing else in memory (I've checked). And the IR port is turned off
although I've only used it indoors so far.

With all the encouragement to "stick with it, it's worth it," I'm
beginning to get the sense that learning to use SeeYou Mobile (or,
from what I understand, WinPilot) may take as long as learning to fly
did originally. Seriously, that's not what I had in mind. I'm
willing to invest time to learn a new technology or application if I
have confidence that it's worth the investment. Much of what has been
touted for SeeYou Mobile so far, however, I've already got in GNII,
which took about one flight to learn to use. Nor am I interested in
using something that requires so much attention in the cockpit that I
have less time to focus on the flying itself.

Here's another example: I'm on the bus this morning into New York
playing with SeeYou Mobile and I push the rocker button to the left to
change map screens. Fine. After a few minutes, though, I notice my
target waypoint has changed. Turns out I'd mis-hit the button and
pushed it up at the same time I pushed left. On the one hand, being
able to change waypoints at any time by scrolling up or down is
whizzy, although I'm not sure how useful it is given the 235 waypoints
I have in my file. On the other hand, I don't want to have to check
the "next waypoint" message every time my hand goes near the iPAQ when
flying in rough air. I also grasp my Compaq 1550 with a couple of
fingers while tapping the screen but I still occasionally hit the
wrong spot. The worst thing that happens with GNII, however, is that
info on a waypoint pops up, then disappears in a few seconds if I
don't tap "Go To". It's self correcting, in another words. My
impression so far is that any of a dozen different small tapping
errors can alter settings in SeeYou Mobile. I know some can be
disabled during configuration, but shouldn't the default set up favor
new users?

I'm still concerned about being able to easily and very quickly enter
tasks without using the stylus, and play the "what if" games required
in a U.S. MAT task where you experiment with different next turnpoints
to time your arrival home. Apparently U.S. contest rules and tasking
are different enough in that respect as to render useless or
inconvenient what would be perfectly acceptable in other countries
(e.g., entering the task before launch).

I've been playing with this package for nearly two weeks now and am
increasingly disquieted by the thought that although it does
everything I want, I won't be able to use it in the real world. I've
actually had several contest pilots say that offline in the past 24
hours. The term that comes to mind, perhaps unfairly, is "a solution
looking for a problem." Is SeeYou Mobile overkill? Will savvy soaring
pilots soon be able to brag that they're "certified power users of
SeeYou Mobile" along with having their 1000 km diplome?

Keep those comments and suggestions coming.

Chip Bearden

Chip,

I've been using GPS_Log for 2 or 3 years (great stuff!), and I eventually
switched to SeeYou Mobile for the simple reason to have the data files in
the same format as PC SeeYou. That was about 3 years/400h ago.

The changeover took me significantly less than an afternoon, and the fine
tuning another flight or two. Since then, it just runs and does what I want.
Just wondering - where exactly do I get the 747 rating ? :-)

If you don't want a function on a button (like scrolling through the WP
list), just disable it in the setting menue.
The whole benefit of SeeYou Mobile is that you configure it to exactly what
you need on the ground, and then inflight you just use it. I haven't done
any configuration inflight so far - that would mean using the stylus, and
having the eyes in the cockpit too long.

The only input from me during most of the flights are
- zoom in/out
- change page
- change target WP or retrieve info on target WP

The nav boxes I have set are
- bearing to target
- distance to target
- ground speed
- required L/D
- actual L/D

When climbing to the glidepath for final, required L/D tells me when I can
leave that thermal alone.

Although I have the terrain data, I very rarely use the terrain on display
(I actually can see it quite nicely just outside the canopy :-). I only
display airfields/outlanding fields, mountain passes and airspace.

Speed tasks and AAT's are no problem at all, and even a change of the task
inflight wouldn't be a big hassle (although in France it's done on the grid,
sometimes sitting in the glider just before takeoff). I have no experience
with MAT's (is that those stupid cats craddles?).

But at the end, either you'll like it or not. I don't see a big performance
advantage of SeeYou Mobile over GPS_Log, but as I said, it's an advantage in
convenience.

Bert

"Chip Bearden" wrote in message
oups.com...
My iPAQ is dedicated to whatever soaring app I end up using; there's
nothing else in memory (I've checked). And the IR port is turned off
although I've only used it indoors so far.

With all the encouragement to "stick with it, it's worth it," I'm
beginning to get the sense that learning to use SeeYou Mobile (or,
from what I understand, WinPilot) may take as long as learning to fly
did originally. Seriously, that's not what I had in mind. I'm
willing to invest time to learn a new technology or application if I
have confidence that it's worth the investment. Much of what has been
touted for SeeYou Mobile so far, however, I've already got in GNII,
which took about one flight to learn to use. Nor am I interested in
using something that requires so much attention in the cockpit that I
have less time to focus on the flying itself.

Here's another example: I'm on the bus this morning into New York
playing with SeeYou Mobile and I push the rocker button to the left to
change map screens. Fine. After a few minutes, though, I notice my
target waypoint has changed. Turns out I'd mis-hit the button and
pushed it up at the same time I pushed left. On the one hand, being
able to change waypoints at any time by scrolling up or down is
whizzy, although I'm not sure how useful it is given the 235 waypoints
I have in my file. On the other hand, I don't want to have to check
the "next waypoint" message every time my hand goes near the iPAQ when
flying in rough air. I also grasp my Compaq 1550 with a couple of
fingers while tapping the screen but I still occasionally hit the
wrong spot. The worst thing that happens with GNII, however, is that
info on a waypoint pops up, then disappears in a few seconds if I
don't tap "Go To". It's self correcting, in another words. My
impression so far is that any of a dozen different small tapping
errors can alter settings in SeeYou Mobile. I know some can be
disabled during configuration, but shouldn't the default set up favor
new users?

I'm still concerned about being able to easily and very quickly enter
tasks without using the stylus, and play the "what if" games required
in a U.S. MAT task where you experiment with different next turnpoints
to time your arrival home. Apparently U.S. contest rules and tasking
are different enough in that respect as to render useless or
inconvenient what would be perfectly acceptable in other countries
(e.g., entering the task before launch).

I've been playing with this package for nearly two weeks now and am
increasingly disquieted by the thought that although it does
everything I want, I won't be able to use it in the real world. I've
actually had several contest pilots say that offline in the past 24
hours. The term that comes to mind, perhaps unfairly, is "a solution
looking for a problem." Is SeeYou Mobile overkill? Will savvy soaring
pilots soon be able to brag that they're "certified power users of
SeeYou Mobile" along with having their 1000 km diplome?

Keep those comments and suggestions coming.

Chip Bearden

I've also been looking for a GNII replacement. It's a nice program,
but lacks a few important features -- it doesn't have a bottom to top
thermal average, and support for figuring out how long it will take to
finish a turn area or MAT flight is sketchy. Terrain map with landable
footprint also seems very useful in ridge country.

The main problem I've found is that other programs are not attuned to
US contest rules (or maybe vice versa!) They are designed for casual
cross country, OLC, or contests under European rules.

Task entry is a big issue. We often get tasks on the grid, 10 mintues
before takeoff. We often get tasks in the air, 10 minutes before the
start gate opens. (Let's not get off topic on a discussion of this
fact. Europeans will say, how dangeorous to change tasks in midair.
We'll say, how dangerous to send the whole fleet off into a
thunderstorm just because you were too rigid to change task in the
air. End of discussion.) This means US contest pilots absolutely need
quick, easy, goof-proof task entry. The GNII, designed for US
contests, is good at this. The others I evaluated are not. Even a few
more clicks, or a few more chances to freeze the whole thing by
pushing the wrong button, are a severe downside. I threw away one
program at Mifflin, when it froze my PDA and GPS while trying to enter
a task just before the start. (Yes I pushed the wrong button, but I
was looking out the window a lot, and why do I need to see boxes with
runway details when I'm picking a task?)

The US also has the MAT task, where you pick the turnpoints that end
the flight. Again, this means you have to evaluate lots of different
task options, while in the air, and sometimes while barreling down the
ridge at 100 knots or with traffic around. Simple, "what if" task
modification is vital. This is much harder on most of the programs I
evaluated, though their time estimates are better than GNII once the
task is entered.

As a minor issue, you want the program to handle US configured start
and finish gates, and US turnpoints. That's also present in GNII
(except for safety finish glideslope, but nobody has that yet).

Wind calculation is important issue, and hard to evaluate. The acid
test, for me, is: I've been barreling along the ridge without turning
for 400 miles (MIffin 2007). The ridge is about to make a sharp right
turn. Is the wind strength/direction going to keep me up around the
corner? Or, I'm thermaling, and want to try the ridge. Well, is it 310
at 12, or is it 280 at 8? GNII is about medium on this. In my
experience the SN10 was better, but that's not a PDA program.

I'm hoping the clear-nav will solve all these problems (plus
visibility), though the cost in dollars and watts will be a lot more
than a PDA.

John Cochrane

On Nov 8, 2:47 pm, Chip Bearden wrote:
I always hate to confirm my incompetence even when others already
suspect. But I don' t have the time or patience to learn how to
configure and use SeeYou Mobile on my own.

I've been playing with it for a couple of weeks on an eBay iPAQ 3950
series because although Glide Navigator II does most of what I need,
there are some features I wish it had (e.g., topo maps, final glide
over terrain). SeeYou Mobile reminds me of the first time I tried to
use Photoshop: incredible power and capabilty but about as intuitive
and user friendly as the cockpit of a 747 (and requiring nearly the
same training). I'm nowhere close to having the two map screens
configured to my satisfaction much less being comfortable with half
the things that pop up when my finger taps the screen deliberately or
accidently. I'm playing with it on public transportation to/from work
so the jostling and bumpiness add to the problem, although not
anywhere near as much as being in the cockpit will.

Moreover, do pilots actually use this without the stylus, using only
their fingertips as the input device? I saw a note in the user manual
about selecting TPs for a task using the Windows input screen before
launch. That won't work here in the U.S. where tasks are changed in
the air with minutes to go before the gate opens, though I'm finding
ways to build a task (albeit with the stylus) without the virtual
keyboard.

And the developer touts the benefits of comparing achieved L/D with
required L/D. Great once you're on final glide but not helpful when
setting it up unless I'm missing something, and that means adding
still more nav boxes to the screen.

It also seems buggy. I often freeze the map display in sim mode though
I can usually still use the menu to save my config settings and exit
without losing the map layouts I've laboriously been building.

Pilots claim to be using SeeYou Mobile in contests (although I hear
stories of year-long ramp ups). Does anyone have a cheat sheet for how
they've set up their map screens? Tips and tricks for flying with it?
Shortcuts/hot keys for the most commonly required tasks? Shortest
paths to key data elements or functions? I've pored through forum
postings and gleaned certain things (e.g., using Map2 exclusively as
the final glide screen with large nav boxes) but I guess the real
secrets are being retained by those who've spent a year or two coming
up to speed.

There's a tongue-in-cheek tone in my posting, but also real
frustration. I'm originally an engineer, computer literate, work in
technology every day, and use many applications like Photoshop that
aren't exactly designed for novices. Yet SeeYou Mobile seems to be the
type of app that one must dedicate months and months to--including a
lot of practice this winter on the sim--to even have a prayer of using
next season. At the current rate, I'm not likely to pay to register my
eval copy before deciding I just can't risk spending too much time in
cockpit trying to sort out a problem when approaching a turnpoint or
on a dicey final glide.

I sat across the lunch table today from another experienced contest
pilot to demo what I'd learned so far. After a couple of soft resets
when the map screens froze, I was able to show him my main map screen.
Between the two of us, however, we triggered enough accidental zooms,
pop ups, wind menus, and the like that we were left passing the PDA
back and forth by its edges gingerly, as if it were a bomb.

By comparison, although GNII has many fewer functions and features,
it's practically idiot proof, can be used by someone without the user
manual almost from day 1, and hardly ever leaves you more than one
finger tap away from the main nav screen. I'm left wondering if SeeYou
Mobile is mostly popular with gadget freaks who would rather play with
technology than fly.

OK, SeeYou Mobile fans, let me have it!

Chip Bearden

Chip,

SeeYou & WinPilot

1. Pilots do use the programs with a finger( finger nail) , but the
stylus in my opinion is more posititve. It is also important to be
close to the ipaq about 17" so you can see and touch it easiily.
2. Buggy is usually an indication of selecting a function or menu
several times instead of touching and wait a second for response. (for
want of some other discription "impatience")
3. I have used WinPilot in every contest approx 1 or 2 every year for
the last ten years. I limit the NAV boxes to : TP & course dev,
Distance, Arrival Altitude, Wind Speed/Direction
(keep it simple).
4. I find also that WinPilot SeeYou is rarely more than on touch from
the main screen.
5. Even if you are pc capable the ipaq operating system is slightly
different and requires different actions to
operate.
6. I find that changing a task in fligth is easy with WinPilot or
SeeYou. It is in my opinion easier than changing a task on a SN10,
LX7007, Borgelt B2000
especially if the task requires changing area turnpoint radius.
7. WinPilot can have 25 task. The main and backup tasks can be
entered at the pilot meetings changing to one of the backups tasks is
quick and easy.
8. Many pilots that uses these programs use them in a specific way
that they have learned or developed.
Most don't have the experience of hearing many different questions
about the software and how other pilots use it. I am suprised many
times when customers tell me
how they use the programs and what is important to them.


Summary

I have used WinPilot for 10 or so years now. I used SeeYou for part
of the last 2 seasons. Both programs in my opinion are excellent.
They both have essiently offer similar features but sometimes in
different ways.
The Simulator Feature that both have will allow you to learn at home
and not in the cockpit.
Both do take some initial study. If you spend two months learning
SeeYou this winter (320 hours) then you in deed will be very skilled
with the program
and I will call you for support and answers. After your are familiar
with the menu items and where functions are both programs become very
easy.

I sell both SeeYou and WinPilot and provide offer 7 day a week phone
support, I believe it is important to be available on the weekends and
evenings.
I genenally answer calls when I get them even on the weekends and
return calls and emails the same day if not available.
I have found that many times a quick phone call will save my customer
many hours and make that learning curve steep.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Thanks to all who offered help. As background, I know Windows CE 2.0
and 3.0 fairly well but there are a few differences I'm seeing in
Pocket PC 2002. And my hardware (iPAQ 3950 series)is fine; it's the
guy playing with SeeYou that's the problem.

I've gotten a bunch of tips and tricks from various people, including
two sets of config files I want to install and play with. In the
meantime, some of my screen freezes were, it turns out, due to the
known bug (AAT Start/Finish) and many of the rest may be due to
impatience, as Richard dubbed it (tapping a button again before giving
the system time to respond, especially while waiting for the colored
topo map screen to refresh). I'm still getting occasional strange
behavior but it's dropped off.

I've also remapped many of the buttons, removed or disabled clicking
for some of the symbols, and gotten the nav boxes organized better to
my taste. Also received was a workaround for the "35 TPs but 200+
waypoints" problem that eliminates the need to scroll through hundreds
of waypoints to set up a task (though it does reinforce my belief that
some of the software developers just don't "get it" when it comes to
U.S. contest rules and the impact on UI and usability, and heard from
one highly ranked pilot who gave up on an application for this reason
alone).

I have mixed feelings over Richard's prediction that 320 hours this
winter will make me a power user of CU Mobile. That's actually about
what I'd heard from another pilot regarding WinPilot, so it's
reassuring. On the other hand, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that
it should take 20-30 times longer to learn an application than to
learn how to fly gliders. And it brings me back to my original analogy
about Photoshop. Anyone who's used the full version knows how
confusing it is to the uninitiated but how much power is available
once you master even a small fraction of the tools. The same should
not be true of soaring software. Chip Garner designed a great
application that still does most of what we all want for competition,
and that many of us are still using. The UI is intuitive and users can
be up and running after literally only a few minutes of instruction or
reading. Yeah, there are some "secrets" and oddities, but Glide
Navigator II (at least driven by a Cambridge vario/GPSNAV) is
powerful, a breeze to learn, and simple to use. CU Mobile is more
powerful still but orders of magnitude more difficult to learn. I work
for an IT consulting company so I know how easy it is for technical
people to design software that does all kinds of whizzy things...but
that can't be used properly by anyone except experts. "Usability" is a
field that grew enormously with the advent of the World Wide Web,
where you still encounter Web sites with impressive functionality that
are failures because of drop out rates (i.e., users who give up
without accomplishing their goal) of 70% or more because they're not
intuitive or easy to learn.

I'll continue to experiment with CU Mobile, and also FlywithCE
Navigator and XCSoar, two other apps recommended by some who gave up
on CU Mobile. I'm also tracking the ClearNav project, which promises
to combine the ease of use of GNII with more powerful functionality
and an order-of-magnitude better display, albeit at higher cost than a
surplus iPAQ and CU Mobile. This sounds like a winning strategy to me
and I'd definitely be waiting for it were it not for cost reasons.

Keep those comments coming, however. I'm still in sim mode right now.
Unlike Dave Ellis who encouraged us to take off and play with his
early LNAV and then Pocket NAV (forerunner of GNII) to learn their
capabilities, with a lot more sim time I wouldn't dare venture into
the air with CU Mobile, at least not without a backup and a lot of
clearing turns to ensure separation while I fussed with the software.

Chip Bearden

On Nov 10, 4:24 pm, Chip Bearden wrote:
Thanks to all who offered help. As background, I know Windows CE 2.0
and 3.0 fairly well but there are a few differences I'm seeing in
Pocket PC 2002. And my hardware (iPAQ 3950 series)is fine; it's the
guy playing with SeeYou that's the problem.

I've gotten a bunch of tips and tricks from various people, including
two sets of config files I want to install and play with. In the
meantime, some of my screen freezes were, it turns out, due to the
known bug (AAT Start/Finish) and many of the rest may be due to
impatience, as Richard dubbed it (tapping a button again before giving
the system time to respond, especially while waiting for the colored
topo map screen to refresh). I'm still getting occasional strange
behavior but it's dropped off.

I've also remapped many of the buttons, removed or disabled clicking
for some of the symbols, and gotten the nav boxes organized better to
my taste. Also received was a workaround for the "35 TPs but 200+
waypoints" problem that eliminates the need to scroll through hundreds
of waypoints to set up a task (though it does reinforce my belief that
some of the software developers just don't "get it" when it comes to
U.S. contest rules and the impact on UI and usability, and heard from
one highly ranked pilot who gave up on an application for this reason
alone).

I have mixed feelings over Richard's prediction that 320 hours this
winter will make me a power user of CU Mobile. That's actually about
what I'd heard from another pilot regarding WinPilot, so it's
reassuring. On the other hand, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that
it should take 20-30 times longer to learn an application than to
learn how to fly gliders. And it brings me back to my original analogy
about Photoshop. Anyone who's used the full version knows how
confusing it is to the uninitiated but how much power is available
once you master even a small fraction of the tools. The same should
not be true of soaring software. Chip Garner designed a great
application that still does most of what we all want for competition,
and that many of us are still using. The UI is intuitive and users can
be up and running after literally only a few minutes of instruction or
reading. Yeah, there are some "secrets" and oddities, but Glide
Navigator II (at least driven by a Cambridge vario/GPSNAV) is
powerful, a breeze to learn, and simple to use. CU Mobile is more
powerful still but orders of magnitude more difficult to learn. I work
for an IT consulting company so I know how easy it is for technical
people to design software that does all kinds of whizzy things...but
that can't be used properly by anyone except experts. "Usability" is a
field that grew enormously with the advent of the World Wide Web,
where you still encounter Web sites with impressive functionality that
are failures because of drop out rates (i.e., users who give up
without accomplishing their goal) of 70% or more because they're not
intuitive or easy to learn.

I'll continue to experiment with CU Mobile, and also FlywithCE
Navigator and XCSoar, two other apps recommended by some who gave up
on CU Mobile. I'm also tracking the ClearNav project, which promises
to combine the ease of use of GNII with more powerful functionality
and an order-of-magnitude better display, albeit at higher cost than a
surplus iPAQ and CU Mobile. This sounds like a winning strategy to me
and I'd definitely be waiting for it were it not for cost reasons.

Keep those comments coming, however. I'm still in sim mode right now.
Unlike Dave Ellis who encouraged us to take off and play with his
early LNAV and then Pocket NAV (forerunner of GNII) to learn their
capabilities, with a lot more sim time I wouldn't dare venture into
the air with CU Mobile, at least not without a backup and a lot of
clearing turns to ensure separation while I fussed with the software.

Chip Bearden

"You know you have achieved perfection in design, not when you have
nothing more to add, but when you have nothing more to take away."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery

On Nov 10, 1:24 pm, Chip Bearden wrote:
Thanks to all who offered help. As background, I know Windows CE 2.0
and 3.0 fairly well but there are a few differences I'm seeing in
Pocket PC 2002. And my hardware (iPAQ 3950 series)is fine; it's the
guy playing with SeeYou that's the problem.

I've gotten a bunch of tips and tricks from various people, including
two sets of config files I want to install and play with. In the
meantime, some of my screen freezes were, it turns out, due to the
known bug (AAT Start/Finish) and many of the rest may be due to
impatience, as Richard dubbed it (tapping a button again before giving
the system time to respond, especially while waiting for the colored
topo map screen to refresh). I'm still getting occasional strange
behavior but it's dropped off.

I've also remapped many of the buttons, removed or disabled clicking
for some of the symbols, and gotten the nav boxes organized better to
my taste. Also received was a workaround for the "35 TPs but 200+
waypoints" problem that eliminates the need to scroll through hundreds
of waypoints to set up a task (though it does reinforce my belief that
some of the software developers just don't "get it" when it comes to
U.S. contest rules and the impact on UI and usability, and heard from
one highly ranked pilot who gave up on an application for this reason
alone).

I have mixed feelings over Richard's prediction that 320 hours this
winter will make me a power user of CU Mobile. That's actually about
what I'd heard from another pilot regarding WinPilot, so it's
reassuring. On the other hand, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that
it should take 20-30 times longer to learn an application than to
learn how to fly gliders. And it brings me back to my original analogy
about Photoshop. Anyone who's used the full version knows how
confusing it is to the uninitiated but how much power is available
once you master even a small fraction of the tools. The same should
not be true of soaring software. Chip Garner designed a great
application that still does most of what we all want for competition,
and that many of us are still using. The UI is intuitive and users can
be up and running after literally only a few minutes of instruction or
reading. Yeah, there are some "secrets" and oddities, but Glide
Navigator II (at least driven by a Cambridge vario/GPSNAV) is
powerful, a breeze to learn, and simple to use. CU Mobile is more
powerful still but orders of magnitude more difficult to learn. I work
for an IT consulting company so I know how easy it is for technical
people to design software that does all kinds of whizzy things...but
that can't be used properly by anyone except experts. "Usability" is a
field that grew enormously with the advent of the World Wide Web,
where you still encounter Web sites with impressive functionality that
are failures because of drop out rates (i.e., users who give up
without accomplishing their goal) of 70% or more because they're not
intuitive or easy to learn.

I'll continue to experiment with CU Mobile, and also FlywithCE
Navigator and XCSoar, two other apps recommended by some who gave up
on CU Mobile. I'm also tracking the ClearNav project, which promises
to combine the ease of use of GNII with more powerful functionality
and an order-of-magnitude better display, albeit at higher cost than a
surplus iPAQ and CU Mobile. This sounds like a winning strategy to me
and I'd definitely be waiting for it were it not for cost reasons.

Keep those comments coming, however. I'm still in sim mode right now.
Unlike Dave Ellis who encouraged us to take off and play with his
early LNAV and then Pocket NAV (forerunner of GNII) to learn their
capabilities, with a lot more sim time I wouldn't dare venture into
the air with CU Mobile, at least not without a backup and a lot of
clearing turns to ensure separation while I fussed with the software.

Chip Bearden

Chip,

I trained one customer on WinPilot who had no PC or PC experience.

I gave him 1 hour one on one training and he began to use the program
in his gilder for simple things like final glide to airports. I did
initially setup his program the maps, database, userway points, nav
boxes, units, safety margin etc.
A couple of weeks later I spend another hour training him to enter
tasks. I get some questions from him now and then at the airport, but
they tend to be simple ones and items that he just forgot where the
item was in the menu.
He did initially go thru the user manual with Ipaq in his hand. Doing
this gets you used to the key strokes to make things happen and most
important gives you an awareness of what is available in the program.
I think both WinPilot & SeeYou have very steep learning curves and if
you persits for 5 or more hours running simulator etc., and going thru
the manual at least once you will find either program to be very
effective.

Again going thru the manual once with ipaq in hand is very
important.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com