Ferry flight a commercial op?

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:34:57 -0800, C J Campbell
wrote in
2007111411345743658-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

Best way to head off such
trouble is to simply call the FSDO in advance and get their take on it.

Right. And get the FSDO Inspector to cite the regulation(s) upon
which his interpretation is based.

In a previous article, (Paul Tomblin) said:
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?

Oh well, the point is now moot. The new owner decided to pick it up
himself. Darn.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
A fool and his money are soon flying more airplane than he can handle.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:27:12 -0600, "Maxwell"
wrote:

If your club is not specifically charging the new owner to deliver the
aircraft,

and you are not receiving compensation for delivering it,

you are good to go.

I have never heard of a case where accruing hours during a flight was
considered compensation.


As a club member, don't you own the aircraft?

And as Maxwell points out, no consideration or compensation is
involved in delivery.

I have a partner in my airplane. If one of us ferries the airplane to
the radio shop, etc... we don't pay the kitty for flight time, the
kitty pays for the gas.

I'd do it.

On Nov 14, 12:36 pm, Helen wrote:
The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.

Helen



If you use that time to qualify for a rating or to satisfy recency
experience, then they might have a case. Labeling any flight time as
compensation is bogus. You can log whatever you want. You can even log
flights you made at your local video arcade. The FAA has no business
looking into your personal logs except the ones you submit to them as
satisfying the required recency experience, which better be true and
correct. They would need a court order to ask for all other
information such as personal logbooks and financial records, and you
would have to have done something very serious for them to go that
far. For that matter, you can't accept money for driving your grandma
to the drug store either. That is commercial operation.

On Nov 13, 7:01 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?


I don't think the CFI is correct. It is not a commercial operation,
but I still would not want to stick my neck out to do the ferry
flight.
Has the airplane been sold, or is the sale pending? If it has been
sold, then you have to know whose insurance you are flying under. What
if the new owner says there are some dents in the fuselage that
weren't there when he made the deal? It's not worth it unless the
buyer is a famly member or personal friend. I would stay out of it.

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
t...
ambiguities as those we're discussing. A service that you get for free
that you would otherwise have to pay for is recorded in the credits
column, and just that could qualify the service as a commercial
transaction. If that service is of sufficient value, it *will* be of
interest to the IRS and thus the FAA and so forth, regardless of the
year-end financial picture.


I don't think so. As a PPL, your analysis could apply to any of my
passengers. They are getting a flight for free that otherwise they would
have to pay for.

"...no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as
pilot in command of an aircraft..."

The first part seems to refer to the aircraft. i.e. it is the aircraft that
is carrying passengers or property for hire and a PPL is prohibited from
acting as PIC of such an aircraft. If that's not the case, then a PPL could
volunteer to take paying passengers (or cargo). The second part seems to
apply to the pilot and we know that required flight experience is considered
compensation.

So a PPL could volunteer to deliver a plane for a ferry service. The ferry
service is being paid. The PPL is not being compensated (not even logging
the time) or hired. The plane isn't carrying any passengers or property for
hire. That sounds like a doable mission according to the letter of the FARs.
I suspect that the FAA could make the arguement that the nature of the
flight is beyond the trained judgement of the PPL.

What about this one...
Could I advertise a no-cost ferry business? Not much different than
borrowing a friends plane except that I'm advertising. I'm not being
compensated. I won't log the hours. The plane is not carrying anything and
isn't for hire. In this case, there isn't a ferry service that is getting
paid either. Again, I think the FAA could make an argument, since I am
entering into a contract with the general public, that the flights warrant a
commercial license.

The wording has probably lasted this long because there are not that many
people with the time and net-worth to be flying around not making any money.
Doing it for the logged flight hours has been held up as compensation so it
must be un-logged, volunteer flying.

How about a teenage PPL who just wants to go flying (and log it). His
parents are so desperate to get him off the couch that they pay for all his
flight time. Sounds like compensated flying.
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in
. net:

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
t...
ambiguities as those we're discussing. A service that you get for
free that you would otherwise have to pay for is recorded in the
credits column, and just that could qualify the service as a
commercial transaction. If that service is of sufficient value, it
*will* be of interest to the IRS and thus the FAA and so forth,
regardless of the year-end financial picture.


I don't think so. As a PPL, your analysis could apply to any of my
passengers. They are getting a flight for free that otherwise they
would have to pay for.

"...no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot
in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire,
act as pilot in command of an aircraft..."

The first part seems to refer to the aircraft. i.e. it is the aircraft
that is carrying passengers or property for hire and a PPL is
prohibited from acting as PIC of such an aircraft. If that's not the
case, then a PPL could volunteer to take paying passengers (or cargo).
The second part seems to apply to the pilot and we know that required
flight experience is considered compensation.

So a PPL could volunteer to deliver a plane for a ferry service. The
ferry service is being paid. The PPL is not being compensated (not
even logging the time) or hired. The plane isn't carrying any
passengers or property for hire. That sounds like a doable mission
according to the letter of the FARs. I suspect that the FAA could make
the arguement that the nature of the flight is beyond the trained
judgement of the PPL.



Nope.

They'd do him for that.

Mone's changing hands for moving the airplane, it's a commercial
operation.


What about this one...
Could I advertise a no-cost ferry business? Not much different than
borrowing a friends plane except that I'm advertising. I'm not being
compensated. I won't log the hours. The plane is not carrying anything
and isn't for hire. In this case, there isn't a ferry service that is
getting paid either. Again, I think the FAA could make an argument,
since I am entering into a contract with the general public, that the
flights warrant a commercial license.

The wording has probably lasted this long because there are not that
many people with the time and net-worth to be flying around not making
any money. Doing it for the logged flight hours has been held up as
compensation so it must be un-logged, volunteer flying.

How about a teenage PPL who just wants to go flying (and log it). His
parents are so desperate to get him off the couch that they pay for
all his flight time. Sounds like compensated flying.
-----------------------------

Please tell me you don;'t work for the FAA. Last thing needed there is
an imaginative policeman.


Bertie

Recently, Travis Marlatte posted:

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
t...
ambiguities as those we're discussing. A service that you get for
free that you would otherwise have to pay for is recorded in the
credits column, and just that could qualify the service as a
commercial transaction. If that service is of sufficient value, it
*will* be of interest to the IRS and thus the FAA and so forth,
regardless of the year-end financial picture.

I don't think so. As a PPL, your analysis could apply to any of my
passengers. They are getting a flight for free that otherwise they
would have to pay for.

Taking passengers to locations for their purposes and that you would not
otherwise be going is specifically disallowed in the FARs, regardless of
whether you charge for the "service". OTOH, such activities as taking
co-workers to a work site or taking friends somewhere (or nowhere) that
you are going is specifically allowed.

"...no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot
in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire,
act as pilot in command of an aircraft..."

The first part seems to refer to the aircraft. i.e. it is the
aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for hire and a PPL
is prohibited from acting as PIC of such an aircraft.

The first part refers to "...no person who holds a private pilot
certificate...", and the rest spells out what that person cannot do.

If that's not
the case, then a PPL could volunteer to take paying passengers (or
cargo). The second part seems to apply to the pilot and we know that
required flight experience is considered compensation.

See above.

So a PPL could volunteer to deliver a plane for a ferry service. The
ferry service is being paid. The PPL is not being compensated (not
even logging the time) or hired. The plane isn't carrying any
passengers or property for hire. That sounds like a doable mission
according to the letter of the FARs. I suspect that the FAA could
make the arguement that the nature of the flight is beyond the
trained judgement of the PPL.

That can get you into hot water for reasons in my previous post.

What about this one...
Could I advertise a no-cost ferry business?

No.

This really is a question of elementary accounting and both the letter and
intent of the FARs. I think it would help you to actually read the FARs to
get a better handle on this as it really is not all that murky an issue.

Neil

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
. net...

volunteer to take paying passengers (or cargo). The second part seems to
apply to the pilot and we know that required flight experience is
considered compensation.


How do we know this? Is there are ruling somewhere?

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...
Recently, Travis Marlatte posted:


Taking passengers to locations for their purposes and that you would not
otherwise be going is specifically disallowed in the FARs, regardless of
whether you charge for the "service". OTOH, such activities as taking
co-workers to a work site or taking friends somewhere (or nowhere) that
you are going is specifically allowed.


Could I advertise a no-cost ferry business?

No.


Why not?