Hey Dudley, detailed analysis of these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might
have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no
commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these, BTW.Might
have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went in with no
commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie

Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but
the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in
with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.

To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to drag
going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically dead in
the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This looked like
it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming through the
gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back into the work
range but by then he was committed way too nose low and had no radial g
available to affect the recovery.

The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The
guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he
simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the
Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at
Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these,
BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went
in with no commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie

Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but
the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in
with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out
in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.

To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to
drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically
dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This
looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming
through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back
into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and
had no radial g available to affect the recovery.


OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it so
well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some sort of
plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and saw it all
going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and heavy as that
doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had only two options
after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been a bit ropey at that
altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if they're even on the menu
in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out for whatever reason, I'd
just pitch over forward hard and bump my way out if the airspeed was
that far gone. The bottom of the list would be to pull hard and then
roll out, which is what he did, intetionally or otherwise, but if he had
pulled a bit harder a bit earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque
roll a bit more nose down which might have avoided the secondary
problem.
Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding
negative G?

The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The
guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he
simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the
Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at
Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled over.
Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after so long
away from aerobatics.


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these,
BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went
in with no commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie
Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but
the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in
with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out
in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.
To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to
drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically
dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This
looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming
through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back
into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and
had no radial g available to affect the recovery.


OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it so
well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some sort of
plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and saw it all
going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and heavy as that
doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had only two options
after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been a bit ropey at that
altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if they're even on the menu
in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out for whatever reason, I'd
just pitch over forward hard and bump my way out if the airspeed was
that far gone. The bottom of the list would be to pull hard and then
roll out, which is what he did, intetionally or otherwise, but if he had
pulled a bit harder a bit earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque
roll a bit more nose down which might have avoided the secondary
problem.
Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding
negative G?
The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The
guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he
simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the
Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at
Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled over.
Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after so long
away from aerobatics.


Bertie

Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the crash.
The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when rolling
and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in the butt
dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way.

The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque roll
carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued out on
him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like he made on
the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a second chance in
prop fighters.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:



Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the
crash. The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when
rolling and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in
the butt dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way.

Yeah, gave you the wrong one the sifrst time and couldn't get it when I
replied. Youtube seemed to be down or something. Still is. He just did a
single roll. It's pretty obvious from the get go that he hasn't got a
chance. By the time he's 90 deg left the nose is well down on the
horizon and he's commited to some major thrashinbg around on the
elevators and rudder to keep the thing goin which degenerates into
dishing out of the bottom in a big way towards the end. I am surprised
about your comments on it losing energy, though..

The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque
roll carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued
out on him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like
he made on the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a
second chance in prop fighters.


OK, that makes sense. I get the feeling he was a bit surprised by the
time he reached the 3/8ths point of the loop and had no real plan out.
They do teach this nowadays, right? I was quizzed mercilessly about
escape routes from all sorts of fjukkups (all of which I had a good
answer for) by the FAA inspector that signed my waiver. Do inspectors
even do those anymore? Evrythng else seems to be done by someone else
these days.





Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:


Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the
crash. The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when
rolling and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in
the butt dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way.

Yeah, gave you the wrong one the sifrst time and couldn't get it when I
replied. Youtube seemed to be down or something. Still is. He just did a
single roll. It's pretty obvious from the get go that he hasn't got a
chance. By the time he's 90 deg left the nose is well down on the
horizon and he's commited to some major thrashinbg around on the
elevators and rudder to keep the thing goin which degenerates into
dishing out of the bottom in a big way towards the end. I am surprised
about your comments on it losing energy, though..
The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque
roll carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued
out on him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like
he made on the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a
second chance in prop fighters.


OK, that makes sense. I get the feeling he was a bit surprised by the
time he reached the 3/8ths point of the loop and had no real plan out.
They do teach this nowadays, right? I was quizzed mercilessly about
escape routes from all sorts of fjukkups (all of which I had a good
answer for) by the FAA inspector that signed my waiver. Do inspectors
even do those anymore? Evrythng else seems to be done by someone else
these days.





Bertie


The Cobra was a perfect example of something every pilot who flies these
hot prop fighters in demonstrations should be told on the very first day
a check pilot works with them.
First thing you learn is that if you have to think about it, you
shouldn't be doing it...period! The second thing you learn is that money
and horsepower don't necessarily equate.
All of these guys have egos. If they didn't, they wouldn't be
demonstrating a prop fighter at low altitude. Ego is fine, but you leave
that on the ground or sooner or later it dies with you in these airplanes.
The first thing you do when you work with these pilots is take away that
ego and replace it with a deep respect for the airplane. Trust me, those
things can kill you quicker than a rattlesnake strike. Complacency will
kill you in prop fighters. The only way you can demonstrate a prop
fighter at low altitude and live to retire and talk about it is to
develop a keen respect for the airplane even more keen than any airplane
you have ever flown or ever will fly.
The next thing is consistency. Bob Hoover is alive today because of
consistency. Every maneuver he does is like it was cut out of a
template. His g profiles in his pulls and his top gate parameters are as
consistent as a finely tuned swiss watch. He seldom varies more than a
few feet in altitude and a few knots in airspeed, and his application of
g is totally predictable.
Predictability is the key to survival when demonstrating an airplane
like a Mustang, Spitfire, or a King Cobra.
There is a killer up there and it rides with you all the time. Neglect
it for only an instant and you're history. It's a game that has to be
played right the first time....every time....period!

You have an issue with these high powered prop fighters that you don't
have in any other kind of airplane when it comes to demonstration flying
at low altitude. This issue concerns what happens when these airplanes
get too slow, have too much angle of attack on the wing, and are
carrying high amounts of manifold pressure.
Just to give you some idea of exactly how powerful these airplanes are,
consider for a moment that a P51 will actually jump it's wheel chocks at
40 inches. You can't hold it!
Now, put one of the fighters on top approaching a critical low altitude
top gate after losing all your maneuvering airspeed to positive g on the
way up there; now throw in a high power setting and a mushing nose rate
as an 11 foot prop disk rotates through the air in pitch and what do you
get? You get a King Cobra severely being impacted by torque in roll,
severe P Factor with the prop sensing a relative wind; and as the prop
disk rotates; gyroscopic precession 90 degrees to the pitch axis. As if
all this wasn't enough, with the high power setting, he had spiraling
slipstream forces acting on the airplane in yaw as well.
As the man says, "this just ain't no place for a sane person to be"

The Cobra had all these things in play, and it really messed him up
badly from what I saw. He had all this mess going on at the same time.

It looked like he tried to salvage it, but instead of cutting the power
and rolling to the nearest horizon throttled back as he should have
done, then repositioning, continuing his routine by recapturing the show
line and continuing, he tried to stay with it and ride it out. The
result was a rolling yawing motion almost surely behind the max CL curve
with a lot of mush on the airplane. Naturally this worked itself out for
him as the wing recovered some workable angle of attack but by then it
was way too late. He had no g available that would recover the airplane
on the front side of a high speed stall before impacting the ground; a
classic coffin corner vertical recovery failure.

So Important is the issue of vertical recovery for demonstration pilots
flying WW2 prop fighters that I have written extensively on the subject
for two publications.
The titles are supplied here for anyone interested in this area of
flight safety.

1. "Zero Error Margin", the definitive study on air show accidents and
demonstration flying by Gen Des Barker of the South African Air Force

2. "Precision Decision" Aeroplane Monthly Feburary 2004




--
Dudley Henriques

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:37:03 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these,
BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot went
in with no commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie
Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra) but
the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been involved in
with safety discussions within the war bird demonstration community.


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out
in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.
To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to
drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically
dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This
looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming
through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back
into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and
had no radial g available to affect the recovery.


OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it so
well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some sort of
plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and saw it all
going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and heavy as that
doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had only two options
after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been a bit ropey at that
altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if they're even on the menu
in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out for whatever reason, I'd
just pitch over forward hard and bump my way out if the airspeed was
that far gone. The bottom of the list would be to pull hard and then
roll out, which is what he did, intetionally or otherwise, but if he had
pulled a bit harder a bit earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque
roll a bit more nose down which might have avoided the secondary
problem.
Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding
negative G?
The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart. The
guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like he
simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter for the
Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16 accident at
Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain fart!


Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled over.
Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after so long
away from aerobatics.


Bertie

Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the crash.
The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when rolling
and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in the butt
dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way.

The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque roll
carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued out on
him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like he made on
the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a second chance in
prop fighters.


I didn't see any T-6 video and roll accident but:

I have lots of time in T-6. If you slow roll the bird the engine will
flood out inverted (with the negative G on the float type carburetor)
and this loss of power will almost always cause you to dish out unless
you immediately apply very large control inputs in all three axis. If
you are on the deck when doing the slow roll then you will probably
buy the farm before you can reestablish control of bird.

The bird can be slow rolled and engine not cut out by turning off the
fuel a few seconds before you start the roll and the engine will
continue to run on fuel in carburetor through out the roll and you
will have normal control authority to do a good roll. Then turning the
fuel back on.

I never had the engine quit when I turned off the fuel to demo a slow
roll to a student but doing it on the deck might be the one time the
fuel flow to the engine did not immediately return to normal as soon
as you were back straight and level ( Of course if you were back
straight and level and engine went dead, and you could not get
restarted, you would have the opportunity to belly bird in and survive
vs cart wheeling if you dished out of roll.

Big John

Big John wrote in
:

On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 21:37:03 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4_iJ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN1lC...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9txDhi5wC2A

Have my own notions, but would be interested from a pros
viewpoint.

I'm assuming that mechanical was not a factor in any of these,
BTW.Might have been, but it appears that in each case the pilot
went in with no commital gates and no escape route.

Bertie
Can't say much about the Extra (at least it looked like an Extra)
but the Hurricane and the King Cobra are accidents I've been
involved in with safety discussions within the war bird
demonstration community.


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished
out in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.
To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low
energy state going through the top gate. He should have had at
least 150 indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his
energy to drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was
practically dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high
power. This looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he
lost it coming through the gate. He recovered as the angle of
attack narrowed back into the work range but by then he was
committed way too nose low and had no radial g available to affect
the recovery.


OK, pretty much as I saw it as well (though I ould never have put it
so well!) But it seems to me he should have been formulating some
sort of plan to get out as he neared the top of the first loop and
saw it all going wrong. Never flown anything as powerful, fast and
heavy as that doing aerobatics, of course, but it seems to me he had
only two options after he passed 90deg; a hammerhead might have been
a bit ropey at that altitude in that airplane, and I don't know if
they're even on the menu in that thing. A hammerhead being ruled out
for whatever reason, I'd just pitch over forward hard and bump my
way out if the airspeed was that far gone. The bottom of the list
would be to pull hard and then roll out, which is what he did,
intetionally or otherwise, but if he had pulled a bit harder a bit
earlier, he'd at least have exited the torque roll a bit more nose
down which might have avoided the secondary problem.
Did it have fuel injection? Was he having to think about avoiding
negative G?
The Hurricane looks like it will come down to a simple brain fart.
The guy was very qualified and had experience. So far it looks like
he simply committed to a Split S below his minimum AGL parameter
for the Hurricane. This one is very similar to the Thunderbird F16
accident at Mountain Home AFB where the team lost a Viper. Brain
fart!


Again, exactly as I saw it. He was screwed the second he rolled
over. Reason I ask is I was just wondering how good my eye was after
so long away from aerobatics.


Bertie

Didn't see the T6 roll on these links, but I think I remember the
crash. The 6 has a lousy roll rate and loses energy like a brick when
rolling and doing 2 in a row while down in the weeds can bite you in
the butt dishing out. More than one guy's lost a T6 this way.

The Cobra; his best chance would have been to anticipate the torque
roll carrying all that MP and throttle back to idle before it torqued
out on him, then rolling to the nearest horizon after a mistake like
he made on the way up. In certain conditions you just don't get a
second chance in prop fighters.


I didn't see any T-6 video and roll accident but:

I have lots of time in T-6. If you slow roll the bird the engine will
flood out inverted (with the negative G on the float type carburetor)
and this loss of power will almost always cause you to dish out unless
you immediately apply very large control inputs in all three axis. If
you are on the deck when doing the slow roll then you will probably
buy the farm before you can reestablish control of bird.

The bird can be slow rolled and engine not cut out by turning off the
fuel a few seconds before you start the roll and the engine will
continue to run on fuel in carburetor through out the roll and you
will have normal control authority to do a good roll. Then turning the
fuel back on.

I never had the engine quit when I turned off the fuel to demo a slow
roll to a student but doing it on the deck might be the one time the
fuel flow to the engine did not immediately return to normal as soon
as you were back straight and level ( Of course if you were back
straight and level and engine went dead, and you could not get
restarted, you would have the opportunity to belly bird in and survive
vs cart wheeling if you dished out of roll.



Here it is John,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7eYhlm9FJ8

Doesn't look like he lost power. Maybe the airplane has been modded.



Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished out
in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.
To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to
drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically
dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This
looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming
through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back
into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low and
had no radial g available to affect the recovery.

The guy in the T6, rolling right, judging from the clip, never made the
rudder switch from left to right rudder as he passed through inverted.
His held in left rudder became bottom rudder as he passed through
inverted then yawed him hard as he reached the second knife edge. Add to
this he didn't have enough forward stick in either as he went through
inverted. The combination of the two errors caused the nose to come down
as he rolled into the 3rd quarter.

You just don't do this in a low altitude roll and survive. To me it
looked like bad control coordination beginning at inverted and held
through impact . The first half of the roll looked good BTW. He just
blew it on the second half.
His airspeed looked fine for a T6 going into the roll set so energy
wasn't the issue here.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


OK, the first one should have been the T6 slow roll where he dished
out
in the end.(orange one in south america?)
Looks like he had nothing even beginning the roll and had completely
lost the plot by the time he reached even 45 degrees and should have
just thrown it away at that point.
To me, the KC accident looked like the result of a way too low
energy
state going through the top gate. He should have had at least 150
indicated inverted on top but it looked like he lost his energy to
drag going up the up line by pulling too much g. He was practically
dead in the water on top but apparently at fairly high power. This
looked like it torqued him in roll pretty good and he lost it coming
through the gate. He recovered as the angle of attack narrowed back
into the work range but by then he was committed way too nose low
and
had no radial g available to affect the recovery.

The guy in the T6, rolling right, judging from the clip, never made
the
rudder switch from left to right rudder as he passed through inverted.
His held in left rudder became bottom rudder as he passed through
inverted then yawed him hard as he reached the second knife edge. Add
to
this he didn't have enough forward stick in either as he went through
inverted. The combination of the two errors caused the nose to come
down
as he rolled into the 3rd quarter.

You just don't do this in a low altitude roll and survive. To me it
looked like bad control coordination beginning at inverted and held
through impact . The first half of the roll looked good BTW. He just
blew it on the second half.
His airspeed looked fine for a T6 going into the roll set so energy
wasn't the issue here.



Hmm, yes, OK. Looked at it again a few times. I still think he's a bit
nose low at the first 90 point which would have exacerbated the nose
down inverted, though. I usually looked for the side of the cowl to be
resting on the horizon at the 90 before commiting to inverted.
I think you're right about the rudder coming through inverted, he got
so absorbed in that problem his rudder control went astray and it
degenerated into just panic thrashing and pulling and hoping for the
best.


Bertie