Cessna sued for skydiving accident.

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 11:30:56 -0500, Margy Natalie
wrote:


It's not the schools its the parents.

Umm...the parents that came though public schools?


I've seen parents come in to find
out why the TEACHER made a mistake and Johnny got a B.

My wife's a dedicated teacher. I hear it every day. 8^(

And the teachers that have been telling parents, for years now, to "Shut
up...we're the experts" hasan't had an effect?

I remember when they gave teachers the same tests they were giving their
students, the teachers failed...miserablly.

I have, though, been to my kids school to ask the teacher why a science
question was a single sentence 115 worlds long, and why a friend of our,
with an MS degree from Princeton, could not figure out the problem.

That's just ONE instance.

Dedication is nice, but that's about all - it will not give students even an
ounce of knowledge or ability to comprehend the world.

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

Morgans wrote:
"kontiki" wrote

Most people have received a pitiful economic
education in this country (thanks to the in-bred nature of
government schools) tso they don't have a clue.

********************************

I am sick to death of everyone placing the blame for everything on
"government schools." It is very possible to get a good education at
government schools, if you want to learn. The blame for most of the
problems with government schools is the lack of motivation of the
students, and is a failure of the parents of kids who are not
motivated to learn.

What does economic education have to do with leaning about a
hopelessly screwed up justice system have to do with the price of
beans in China? That seems like it would be a government-social
studies failure, if anything.

Blaming the schools alone isn't legitimate, but they certainly have
been a significant contributor. Public schools long ago moved from a
"personal responsibility" to a "self-esteem" based approached that has
been disastrous and is a significant contributor to many of society's
problems today.

No longer can schools punish students as it is either illegal or will
harm the students' self-esteem. When a student fails a class, we
blame everyone but the student and find a way to move them along
anyway. I know you have public school connections (your wife as I
recall), but the reality is that public schools HAVE contributed to
this phenomenon of sending subtle, and sometimes not so subtle,
messages that nothing is YOUR fault it is the fault of the "system",
and don't worry as the "system" will take care of you anyway.

Matt

So what's your excuse?


Bertie

"Matt Whiting" wrote

Blaming the schools alone isn't legitimate, but they certainly have been a
significant contributor. Public schools long ago moved from a "personal
responsibility" to a "self-esteem" based approached that has been
disastrous and is a significant contributor to many of society's problems
today.

No longer can schools punish students as it is either illegal or will harm
the students' self-esteem.

I'm not sure if what you are saying is a deliberate concept of education, or
has become a part of education just has it become a way of our society.
Education does usually directly reflect our society's values and approaches
towards responsibility. I can't disagree with a lot of what you are
saying, just refute that it is being caused by education. It is a question
of cause or effect. School causing the problem, or schools exhibiting the
problem because of society? That is the question.

How I wish we could punish students appropriately. We are powerless, as
most avenues of punishment have been taken from us. In large part, much of
what IS wrong with schools have been imposed on them by -------. You fill
in the blank.

When a student fails a class, we blame everyone but the student and find a
way to move them along anyway.

Oh, we as teachers would love to keep them behind when they fail. They need
to be kept behind until they get it right, or reach a certain level of
competency, but someone else that "knows better" won't let that happen.

Speaking of such things, why are we letting kids that can't read, take other
classes that require reading? (like all of them) They should be kept in
concentrated reading until they can.

It is like keeping a student that can not land an airplane working on
circles around a point, or other maneuvers, then when they can do them,
signing them off to solo. They are not ready to solo, if they can't land,
right? COMMON SENSE ! It happens in education, though. They take science
classes that require math, when they can't add or multiply. They take
sociology, or history, when they can't read.

How about speaking English? We continue teaching (in English) and when they
go to do a worksheet or homework on what was talked about in class, we send
them to ESL English as a Second Language) tutors to help them with the work.
How can they know what the work is about, if they could not understand what
the teacher was saying?

This type of thing is what I find so frustrating about teaching. Teachers
usually know what is needed, but they can't make it happen. Students should
not be allowed to continue until they meet certain levels of competency.
You are right, that they are pushed along, but that is not teachers making
that happen.

I'm totally frustrated with many things in education, the way it is today.
I try to do the best , thing for the student, and try to overcome the
obsticals, and it is totally frustrating, some days. I would not reccomend
anyone to go into education, today. Teachers have their hands tied in too
many ways, and are treated with a lack of respect by some students, almost
daily. I wonder if it could be worth it, for anyone.

I know you have public school connections (your wife as I recall), but the
reality is that public schools HAVE contributed to this phenomenon of
sending subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, messages that nothing is YOUR
fault it is the fault of the "system", and don't worry as the "system"
will take care of you anyway.

I don't see that as a message that is a direct result of education, but as a
result of how education has had their hands tied. The "system will take
care of you" is a direct observation of how society treats problems, and
people with problems, nowdays.

Also, I wanted to comment on "No Child Left Behind, and how that has been
such a total failure, and perhaps one of the very worst pieces of
legislation to ever hit the public schools.

All kids are not created equal, and can not possibly be treated the same, to
achieve to their maximum potential. It can't work. It doesn't work.

If the guberment would keep their hands off of educators, and let them do
what is needed (instead of passing more legislation mandating this and that)
perhaps you would see education improve. As it is, we are so busy trying to
meet one requirement or the other, that there is little time to teach.

Well, enough. I get tired of beating my head against the wall, talking
about this. I'll try real hard to be quiet, now! g
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:


What does economic education have to do with leaning about a hopelessly
screwed up justice system have to do with the price of beans in China?

If you have to ask that question then you are one of the victims.

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Morgans wrote:


What does economic education have to do with leaning about a hopelessly
screwed up justice system have to do with the price of beans in China?

If you have to ask that question then you are one of the victims.

Or one of the causes.

If you have to ask that question then you are one of the victims.

Or one of the causes.

Yeah, Matt. I confess. I'm a prime example of all the failings of public
education. All the problems rolled up into one ball.

I don't know how I can live with myself.

Not.
--
Jim in NC

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Morgans wrote:


What does economic education have to do with leaning about a hopelessly
screwed up justice system have to do with the price of beans in China?

If you have to ask that question then you are one of the victims.

Educate me, then.

The question is what relevance economic education has to a broken justice
system.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Morgans wrote:

What does economic education have to do with leaning about a hopelessly
screwed up justice system have to do with the price of beans in China?
If you have to ask that question then you are one of the victims.

Educate me, then.

The question is what relevance economic education has to a broken justice
system.

I really find it fascinating that you don't see any connection or
think that they are linked.

A few years back my name came up for jury duty. I showed up at
the courthouse in the morning as ordered. Eventually I was placed
in a group that would be culled out for a trial involving a
lawsuit against a contractor. The group of us sat there and
answered questions from both attorneys regarding what we did
for a living, what our level of education was and a few others.

I can tell you that anyone involved at any level in any engineering
field was curt from the jury (I was one of those). After that
anyone in construction or who owned a business was cut. What was
left were a a couple of school teachers and house wives.

It was clear that the attorneys wanted no independent thinkers
in that jury. They wanted a group of people with little ability
to understand what the hell they were talking about so they
could appeal to the emotions of jury and not have deal with
any education or judgments based upon direct experience.

I've said enough about all of this. As I stated if you don't
see how all of this is connected today, in 2007 then there really
is no hope.

"kontiki" wrote

I've said enough about all of this. As I stated if you don't
see how all of this is connected today, in 2007 then there really
is no hope.

In other words, you don't know. If you did, it would be easy to state.

All mouth, no substance. Just like your hero, MX
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:
"kontiki" wrote


Most people have received a pitiful economic
education in this country (thanks to the in-bred nature of government
schools) tso they don't have a clue.


********************************

I am sick to death of everyone placing the blame for everything on
"government schools." It is very possible to get a good education at
government schools, if you want to learn. The blame for most of the
problems with government schools is the lack of motivation of the students,
and is a failure of the parents of kids who are not motivated to learn.

What does economic education have to do with leaning about a hopelessly
screwed up justice system have to do with the price of beans in China? That
seems like it would be a government-social studies failure, if anything.

Is a government school responsible for you not being able to proof read your
posts? It must be, to write "tso they don't have a clue."

I just lost a bit of respect for you. I thought you were smarter than to
play a blame game like you showed in a post like this.
Nah Jim,

He's got it right. Let's go back to a system where only the wealthy got
an education and put everyone else to work at 12. That should fix the
problem!

Margy