Cessna sued for skydiving accident.

Matt Whiting wrote:

No longer can schools punish students as it is either illegal or will
harm the students' self-esteem. When a student fails a class, we blame
everyone but the student and find a way to move them along anyway. I
know you have public school connections (your wife as I recall), but the
reality is that public schools HAVE contributed to this phenomenon of
sending subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, messages that nothing is
YOUR fault it is the fault of the "system", and don't worry as the
"system" will take care of you anyway.


Yes, its a huge problem that tends to feed on itself. But before
any solution can be attained there must first be a recognition
that a problem exists and an understanding of the nature of
the problem. Then there must be the ability to use some critical
thinking (i.e. thinking outside the box) that most people lack.

I submit that this is to a significant degree due to the fact that
it is not taught or even encouraged in the current education system.
There are other factors of course, but I our education system is
probably the most important one. If someone is not educated enough
to recognize that a problem exists there can never be a solution.

"kontiki" wrote in message
...
Matt Whiting wrote:

No longer can schools punish students as it is either illegal or will
harm the students' self-esteem. When a student fails a class, we blame
everyone but the student and find a way to move them along anyway. I
know you have public school connections (your wife as I recall), but the
reality is that public schools HAVE contributed to this phenomenon of
sending subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, messages that nothing is
YOUR fault it is the fault of the "system", and don't worry as the
"system" will take care of you anyway.


Yes, its a huge problem that tends to feed on itself. But before
any solution can be attained there must first be a recognition
that a problem exists and an understanding of the nature of
the problem. Then there must be the ability to use some critical
thinking (i.e. thinking outside the box) that most people lack.

Behavior is secondary to the inculcation of irrationality which breeds the
behavior pathologies. It is beyond two generation now, so Morgan's prattle
that parents being the cause is only partially correct...a very small part.

On Dec 2, 3:12 pm, "Matt W. Barrow"
wrote:

Behavior is secondary to the inculcation of irrationality which breeds the
behavior pathologies. It is beyond two generation now, so Morgan's prattle
that parents being the cause is only partially correct...a very small part.- Hide quoted text -

MxMatt, someday I am going to try to actually make sense of one of
your posts . I think you use alot of big words to try to sound like
you know what you are talking about ( Cant blame ya, I like to sound
like this too). Your talk of education reminds me of the thread about
airline labor where you made sweeping blanket statements about unions
but you didnt have a basic grasp of the Railway Labor Act. Your posts
about flying are even worse
I have volunteered at my kids schools for years . I was impressed by
how hard most of these people work ( and for a fraction of the $$$
most of us make. I have seen them cussed out by students and parents,
some of whom never spend any time personally fostering thier kids
education. Instead of pointing uot the systems faults (And your silly
views of what caused them, why dont you roll up your sleeves and
volunteer.
FB

F. Baum wrote:

I have volunteered at my kids schools for years . I was impressed by
how hard most of these people work ( and for a fraction of the $$$
most of us make.

Have you looked at how much money is spent for administration
in public schools? Its massive... and very top heavy. In many
school systems there are more "administrative" employees than
there are teachers. Big fancy buildings and salaries for these
folks not to mention the millions spent to lobby congress.

I have seen them cussed out by students and parents,
some of whom never spend any time personally fostering thier kids
education. Instead of pointing uot the systems faults (And your silly
views of what caused them, why dont you roll up your sleeves and
volunteer.
FB


Why don't some of these highly paid administrators get off their
a$$es and get to work. And besides... the parents of today are
failed products of the wonderful public school systems. What
can you expect from them.

Time out, sports fans.

Don't blame the schools.

Where are the parents????

Discipline-Yes, teachers would love to discipline the students. It has
been curtailed, mostly due to parents! ("How dare you discipline my
Johnny. He would never do that! If you touch my Johnny I'll sue you,
the district, the city, etc.")

Self Esteem-Parents again. (My Johnny is just as good as all these
other kids. I demand that he/she is captain of the team, gets to play
quarterback, sing the lead part, blah, blah, blah.)

Fault. Parents. (It's not Johnny's fault. He missed the test because
had to keep him out of school so we could go to Aunt Mabels. Johnny
couldn't do the assignment because he had to race in the skateboard finals.)

Move them along anyway. Parents. (You can't flunk my Johnny! I'll sue
you, the district, the city, the state.)

Teachers today spend countless hours substituting for parents (and
others) who think that the education system is responsible for every
facet of a student's life. Many of these kids come to class with no
manners, common sense, respect for authority, discipline, or basic
social skills.

Many of these kids also come from abusive, broken homes where the
parents have the same problems their kids have-brought on by their own
parents. In addition, many kids are coming from households where the
parents are too drunk, stoned, or not even there to care about their
kids. They're hungry, scared, defensive, and possibly already looking
out for themselves.

Self Esteem? When your own parents don't care or beat you, you do need
some self esteem.

All of these factors challenge our kids today.

But, it's the teachers fault if the kids don't learn.

Want to see the biggest problem in America's education system? Look in
the mirror.

Get involved with your kids. Get involved with your schools. Be part
of the solution. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and be a Monday
morning quarterback.

-end rant-

Al
1964 Skyhawk
Spokane, WA

kontiki wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:


No longer can schools punish students as it is either illegal or will
harm the students' self-esteem. When a student fails a class, we
blame everyone but the student and find a way to move them along
anyway. I know you have public school connections (your wife as I
recall), but the reality is that public schools HAVE contributed to
this phenomenon of sending subtle, and sometimes not so subtle,
messages that nothing is YOUR fault it is the fault of the "system",
and don't worry as the "system" will take care of you anyway.


I submit that this is to a significant degree due to the fact that
it is not taught or even encouraged in the current education system.
There are other factors of course, but I our education system is
probably the most important one. If someone is not educated enough
to recognize that a problem exists there can never be a solution.

"Al" wrote Time out, sports fans.

Don't blame the schools.

Where are the parents????
Want to see the biggest problem in America's education system? Look in
the mirror.

Get involved with your kids. Get involved with your schools. Be part of
the solution. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and be a Monday morning
quarterback.

-end rant-
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks Al

Truer words never spoken. You said it much more eloquently than I can. I
_am_ personally involved, and see all that you mentioned every day, and
more. It makes me angry, nearly every day. Sometimes I can't help but to
get a little over-revved.

Just a couple more things I'll mention that you didn't.

Want to see racism? Look at the parents. I am floored by some of the
attitudes I see, and then I meet the parents. The nut doesn't fall far from
the tree.

I would never dream of that type of behavior, or talk. I really didn't know
there were really people still like that, until I started teaching.

Another one.

How about destruction of other people's property? Kids try to break
something, just to see if they can "tear it up." Even very sturdy things
that are built to take a good bit of abuse, like professional grade power
tools, costing hundreds of dollars. (I teach construction, or carpentry;
what ever you want to call it) They do usually figure out a way to break
them, after a while.

They know it is wrong, because they are sneaky and do it while you are not
looking. Then they laugh about it, thinking it is hilarious. That is how I
usually know they have done something destructive, and start investigating
until I figure out what they were up to. How did this get started? Ever
see "Jackass TV?" The title says it all; kids acting like jackasses.
There are many shows on like that now. Tapes are made of stuff getting
broken, just for fun.

It is not limited to property, but to other people, also. Look on U-tube.

I was looking at something on U-tube the other day, and drift got me to
where kids were doing stuff to hurt other kids, just for fun. I saw one,
where a kid chased one of his buddies through a door that you could not see
through, and someone was on the other side of the door waiting for him.
They had removed the back of a swivel type desk chair, you know - a hard
back with padding on it for the small of your back and up a little, with a
steel flat bar to connect it to the seat portion. The kid swung that at the
other persons FACE as hard as he could. It was so hard that it knocked the
other one backwards off his feet. A very bloody nose resulted, and I would
be VERY surprised if his nose was not broken. Funny stuff, huh?

I put much of the blame on TV shows and tapes like that for this type of
destructive and abusive behavior. They sit around thinking about ways to
top what they saw. Again, they usually succeed.

Where are the parents to teach values about respect for other people, and
respect for other people's property? Teachers can not teach all of that at
school; it has to happen at home. On the whole it is, but there are way too
many examples of kids that are not getting the values, somehow, and it is
obvious.

If someone did something like that at school and got caught, (probably
wouldn't - planning and lookouts would prevent that - this tape I mentioned
with the bloody nose looked like it might have been at school, by the way)
he would get a few days vacation. Oh, I meant suspension. Same thing, to
the kid.

Where is the punishment that would mean something, like a severely bruised
ass. I guarantee, when I was a kid, that would have happened, and I would
have gotten double when I got home. That was my parent's policy. Guess
what? I never tested that policy.

Again, I would never have dreamed of doing of things like that. Values
taught at home, not at school. Such behaviors are now an almost daily
occurrence.

There is more, but you did get what you mentioned, dead on. Exactly right.

Again, thanks.

People, listen to him, not to me, if you wish. He said it like it is.
--
Jim in NC

"kontiki" wrote

Yes, its a huge problem that tends to feed on itself. But before
any solution can be attained there must first be a recognition
that a problem exists and an understanding of the nature of
the problem. Then there must be the ability to use some critical
thinking (i.e. thinking outside the box) that most people lack.

I submit that this is to a significant degree due to the fact that
it is not taught or even encouraged in the current education system.
There are other factors of course, but I our education system is
probably the most important one. If someone is not educated enough
to recognize that a problem exists there can never be a solution.

I seriously doubt that you are more than slightly aware of the goals of
thinking styles that are being taught, or encouraged.

If your paragraph (in context) is attempting to state that critical
thinking, (i.e. thinking outside the box) is not being taught, or even
encouraged, then you are quite wrong.

Perhaps you could suggest a curriculum to achieve these goals better than
what is being done today.

Straighten us out. Please tell us what we are not doing right. You will
get plenty of people listening, I'm sure. If you can not do this, then you
are just another person with all of the problems and no solutions, which
does nobody any good.

It is easy to criticize, but hard to fix.

Oh, and by the way; you are quick to jump me for making personal attacks.
My words pale compared to Mat B's. No criticism for him?
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:


Perhaps you could suggest a curriculum to achieve these goals better than
what is being done today.

In fact I could if I wanted to take the time. In fact, alternatives
have already been proposed and being used as we speak in private
schools around the country. But they certainly aren't ones where
government has role to play, other than as subject matter for learning.

Straighten us out. Please tell us what we are not doing right. You will
get plenty of people listening, I'm sure. If you can not do this, then you
are just another person with all of the problems and no solutions, which
does nobody any good.


Lets have real school choice nationwide. Let parents have the money
they are paying in taxes so they can send their kids to private
schools if they want. That's step number one. Get rid of teacher's
lobbies like the NEA... if they are all so dedicated to education why
do they need to be spending so much money lobbying congress?
Wouldn't that money be better spent in the actual education process?
Or how about just higher salaries for the good teachers?

It is easy to criticize, but hard to fix.

Not really hard at all.

Oh, and by the way; you are quick to jump me for making personal attacks.
My words pale compared to Mat B's. No criticism for him?

I was only pointing that out in response to how quick you were to
focus on a typo in my post... as if a single typing mistake (I
am no typist, I admit) negates any validity to my posts.

Lets have real school choice nationwide. Let parents have the money
they are paying in taxes so they can send their kids to private
schools if they want. That's step number one. Get rid of teacher's
lobbies like the NEA... if they are all so dedicated to education why
do they need to be spending so much money lobbying congress?
Wouldn't that money be better spent in the actual education process?
Or how about just higher salaries for the good teachers?

We have school choice here in Iowa City, to a degree. We may enroll
our kids in any school in the district, so long as we can figure out a
way to deliver them each morning. (Well, this year they curtailed
that practice between the high schools, because one side of town is
growing way faster than the other.)

This works okay, to a degree -- but one result is all the bad kids
(AKA: The ones without caring parents) end up in the same schools.
All the good parents move their kids OUT of the bad schools.

This, of course, leads to other problems. High teacher turnover/
burnout becomes a real problem. You would think more resources would
be poured into the bad schools, but because the student count drops,
they actually get LESS money, unless extraordinary efforts are made.

Because of the totally screwed up employer/employee relations between
administators and teachers, there is little hope of a solution coming
from that quarter. The teacher's union stands in the way of
innovation -- union contracts don't permit too much in the way of
experimentation with staffing -- and the administrators are just as
bad or worse.

"Administrator" is just a fancy name for "bureaucrat" -- and by their
nature bureacrats do not want anything to change, unless it means more
money and less work. These bureacrats, therefore, appointed by our
elected school boards and supposedly safeguarding the People's money
by working in their best interest, end up working in collusion with
the teachers unions to make sure that nothing actually changes. In
the end these two forces -- seemingly in conflict -- tend to work
together to ensure that no solutions are forthcoming.

Throwing private schools into the mix of "school choice" -- without
fixing the underlying conflicting interests in this employee-employer
relationship -- would be a disaster, IMHO. And that's just not going
to happen in today's political climate.

Which, of course, brings us back to where we started -- and are
stuck.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:


This works okay, to a degree -- but one result is all the bad kids
(AKA: The ones without caring parents) end up in the same schools.
All the good parents move their kids OUT of the bad schools.

Hmmm market forces at work? Perish the thought!

This, of course, leads to other problems. High teacher turnover/
burnout becomes a real problem. You would think more resources would
be poured into the bad schools, but because the student count drops,
they actually get LESS money, unless extraordinary efforts are made.

And there has been the solution... throw more money in a black hole.
Sigh... we can't save everyone. Try as we might (and it has been tried)
we can't make everyone equal... unless of course we just dumb everyone
down to the lowest common denominator. Not a plan for building a great
country (much less a great economy). I'm not being cruel, those are
simply the facts and submit human history as my evidence. Darwin's
theory can only be subverted for just so long... until the money
runs out.

Because of the totally screwed up employer/employee relations between
administators and teachers, there is little hope of a solution coming
from that quarter. The teacher's union stands in the way of
innovation -- union contracts don't permit too much in the way of
experimentation with staffing -- and the administrators are just as
bad or worse.


I'd fire 'em... get rid of the department of education. What business
is it of the FEDERAL government to get involved in education anyway?
Where in the Constitution is that function assigned? Sounds like
Communism to me. Same thing with 'Universal Health Care" (something
to look forward to I guess).


"Administrator" is just a fancy name for "bureaucrat" -- and by their
nature bureacrats do not want anything to change, unless it means more
money and less work. These bureacrats, therefore, appointed by our
elected school boards and supposedly safeguarding the People's money
by working in their best interest, end up working in collusion with
the teachers unions to make sure that nothing actually changes. In
the end these two forces -- seemingly in conflict -- tend to work
together to ensure that no solutions are forthcoming.

Agreed.

Throwing private schools into the mix of "school choice" -- without
fixing the underlying conflicting interests in this employee-employer
relationship -- would be a disaster, IMHO. And that's just not going
to happen in today's political climate.


Disagree. Sorry... the private sector will do a better job and
results prove it. Government schools are the disaster.

But you are right... it won't happen in todays political environment
because the average voter is too stupid. After all, they went to
government schools.