Fly Boy ?????

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

Surely there were many aircraft with two or more crew where only one got
out during all of WWII, PTO, CBI, ETO, MTO!

You surely aren't going to label them all "cowards" by definition are
you?

Most people that went into concentration camps never made it out. There
was certainly stealing and back stabbing and sucking up to the SS by at
least some camp members. Does that imply anyone who survived did so via
underhanded means?

I think you're being *way* overly harsh in this judgment, and I also
think your distaste for the Bush clan is driving your judgment.


SMH

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a
famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His
plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a
single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and
bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his
cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory
of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

As usual Dum-dum got it wrong again.

Tom Harmon of Michigan was the supposed culprit.

It was a B-25 not a B-17 as the "legend in his own mind" writes!

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Erik Pfeister"
Date: 10/21/03 2:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a
famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His
plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a
single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and
bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his
cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory
of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

As usual Dum-dum got it wrong again.

Tom Harmon of Michigan was the supposed culprit.

It was a B-25 not a B-17 as the "legend in his own mind" writes!




Did you fly the B-17 or the B-25?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Erik Pfeister"
Date: 10/21/03 2:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a
famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His
plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a
single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and
bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his
cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory
of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

As usual Dum-dum got it wrong again.

Tom Harmon of Michigan was the supposed culprit.

It was a B-25 not a B-17 as the "legend in his own mind" writes!


But you don't deny the fact that the son of a bitch bailed out and his crew
perished do you?

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 10/21/03 1:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is one
of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His plane
was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a single
one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was always
that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

Surely there were many aircraft with two or more crew where only one got
out during all of WWII, PTO, CBI, ETO, MTO!

You surely aren't going to label them all "cowards" by definition are
you?

Most people that went into concentration camps never made it out. There
was certainly stealing and back stabbing and sucking up to the SS by at
least some camp members. Does that imply anyone who survived did so via
underhanded means?

I think you're being *way* overly harsh in this judgment, and I also
think your distaste for the Bush clan is driving your judgment.


SMH


Everything you say is true and I can't argue with any of it. But every time I
hear of where only a pilot survived and anenire crew was lost, I can't help but
think back.But maybe when one is aircrew it means a lot more than if one never
set foot in a plane or flew a mission. You can understand that can't you?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

Everything you say is true and I can't argue with any of it. But every time I
hear of where only a pilot survived and anenire crew was lost, I can't help but
think back.But maybe when one is aircrew it means a lot more than if one never
set foot in a plane or flew a mission. You can understand that can't you?

I suppose such a thought could linger in one's mind.

I know guilt at being a lone survivor of terrible events can sometimes drive
a person to suicide. "Why did I survive when everyone around me died?"

I remember reading "recent" (1980's) analysis of evidence from the Little
Big Horn battle site in Montana after a prairie fire cleared the area, that
indicated one soldier *almost* escaped being killed along with Custer and
his command.

Fragments of his body and that of his horse, were found quite a distance
away from the main battle site.

Had he survived, can you imagine the insinuations that fellow would have had
to endure for the remainder of his life, justly or not?


SMH

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 10/21/03 10:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

Everything you say is true and I can't argue with any of it. But every time
I
hear of where only a pilot survived and anenire crew was lost, I can't help
but
think back.But maybe when one is aircrew it means a lot more than if one
never
set foot in a plane or flew a mission. You can understand that can't you?

I suppose such a thought could linger in one's mind.

I know guilt at being a lone survivor of terrible events can sometimes drive
a person to suicide. "Why did I survive when everyone around me died?"

I remember reading "recent" (1980's) analysis of evidence from the Little
Big Horn battle site in Montana after a prairie fire cleared the area, that
indicated one soldier *almost* escaped being killed along with Custer and
his command.

Fragments of his body and that of his horse, were found quite a distance
away from the main battle site.

Had he survived, can you imagine the insinuations that fellow would have had
to endure for the remainder of his life, justly or not?


SMH


Yes.There are always questions.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Stephen Harding wrote:

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was
a famous footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17
pilot. His plane was severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and
survived. But not a single one of hsd crew did. There were accusations
that he lost his nerve and bailed before his crew could get out. And
they all died because of his cowardice.

Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever
I hear of a pilot that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it
brings back the memory of that WW II incident. And there many of us who
will never forget it.

Surely there were many aircraft with two or more crew where only one got
out during all of WWII, PTO, CBI, ETO, MTO!

I should point out that GWHB was not the only member of his crew who
bailed out. He was merely the only survivor. (There were two bailouts
reported but only one "good chute")

The Avenger was noted for being a difficult plane to bail out of,
especially for the turret gunner & radioman, neither of whom had room to
wear their chutes while at their duty station. There has been
speculation that GHWB would have been better off ditching, as the
Avenger was a great floater (snarky comment - and he'd done it twice
before), but we'll never know whether or not the damage given to his
plane made that impossible.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

ubject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Marc Reeve)
Date: 10/22/03 11:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


There has been
speculation that GHWB would have been better off ditching, as the
Avenger was a great floater (snarky comment - and he'd done it twice
before), but we'll never know whether or not the damage given to his
plane made that impossible.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve


That's true. We will never know.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer