Who's Boss?

Let me elaborate: First of all, I am shooting the GPS 16 into KHKS. This
involves going to Ocaro and then doing a semi-hold prior to the inbound leg.
The inbound leg is Ocaro, which is about ten miles from HKS, then Gugwa,
which is five miles (I guess co-located to Brenz.) Remember, I am single
engine so my whole goal is to stay within glide distance. Outbound from the
IAF of Ocaro in the pre-approach hold, I am 13 miles from the runway, so
4000 is where I want to be if my engine fails. I fly a Silver Eagle with a
turbine, so a rapid descent is no problem. At night, I like the structure of
an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an emergency glide.
Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by doing so, the
controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to descend to 2,000
while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the runway, for traffic that
is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say, "If you don't mind, I'd
like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller says, "I do mind. Descend for
traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend yet. Have traffic visually. Will
maintain seperation." Can I continue on my merry way and ignore his command
that I descend below a safe gliding distance. Or is he going is he going to
report me to the FSDO?



"Newps" wrote in message
. ..
You're not seriously practicing an approach under these circumstances.



Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

I'm flying into my home base KHKS at night in a single engine airplane.
At no point have I been outside of glide range to an airport. I am VFR
shooting a practice full approach in Class C airspace going into a Class
D airport. The controller wants me to descend to 2,000 feet five miles
before the FAF for traffic (which I can plainly see.) I want to stay at
4,000 and stay within glide range and descend more slowly. Do I have the
authority to tell him no?

wrote in message
...

Let me elaborate: First of all, I am shooting the GPS 16 into KHKS. This
involves going to Ocaro and then doing a semi-hold prior to the inbound
leg. The inbound leg is Ocaro, which is about ten miles from HKS, then
Gugwa, which is five miles (I guess co-located to Brenz.) Remember, I am
single engine so my whole goal is to stay within glide distance. Outbound
from the IAF of Ocaro in the pre-approach hold, I am 13 miles from the
runway, so 4000 is where I want to be if my engine fails. I fly a Silver
Eagle with a turbine, so a rapid descent is no problem. At night, I like
the structure of an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an
emergency glide. Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by
doing so, the controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to
descend to 2,000 while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the runway,
for traffic that is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say, "If you
don't mind, I'd like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller says, "I do
mind. Descend for traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend yet. Have
traffic visually. Will maintain seperation." Can I continue on my merry
way and ignore his command that I descend below a safe gliding distance.
Or is he going is he going to report me to the FSDO?


You're VFR in Class E airspace, if you're not happy tell him bye-bye and
remain clear of Class C airspace.

That's interesting. The GPS 16 approach starts off in Class E then goes into
Class C at above 1700 just past the Gugwa (or Brenz) FAF.

It looks like I could shoot the whole approach without talking to Jackson
approach, although it would be very close. That being said, I've always got
the feeling that I should be talking to Jackson approach going into Hawkins
which is in Class C. I guess that gives me a little bargaining power.
However, I have to deal with these controllers all the time and I supposed
it's not wise to irritate them in this manner. My whole complaint is that
they ignored my very understandable desire to stay within glide distance,
which really shouldn't have been a problem for them. It was as though I were
inconveniencing them by flying the approach differently, wanting to stay
higher until the FAF.

Lately, I get the feeling that the Jackson controllers are overwhelmed. I
flew in tonight, asked for the GPS 16 VFR by my own navigation and was told
"unable" when 20 miles out. What the heck does that mean? Unable to what?
I'm flying the whole thing myself VFR. They don't have to do a thing.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Let me elaborate: First of all, I am shooting the GPS 16 into KHKS. This
involves going to Ocaro and then doing a semi-hold prior to the inbound
leg. The inbound leg is Ocaro, which is about ten miles from HKS, then
Gugwa, which is five miles (I guess co-located to Brenz.) Remember, I am
single engine so my whole goal is to stay within glide distance. Outbound
from the IAF of Ocaro in the pre-approach hold, I am 13 miles from the
runway, so 4000 is where I want to be if my engine fails. I fly a Silver
Eagle with a turbine, so a rapid descent is no problem. At night, I like
the structure of an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an
emergency glide. Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by
doing so, the controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to
descend to 2,000 while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the
runway, for traffic that is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say,
"If you don't mind, I'd like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller
says, "I do mind. Descend for traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend
yet. Have traffic visually. Will maintain seperation." Can I continue on
my merry way and ignore his command that I descend below a safe gliding
distance. Or is he going is he going to report me to the FSDO?


You're VFR in Class E airspace, if you're not happy tell him bye-bye and
remain clear of Class C airspace.

Visit the facility and talk. They will tell what they do and why and you
can explain you r concerns.

BTW, if you are THAT worried, about an engine failure at night or in the day
for that matter, buy a twin and get very good instruction. Unless you are
over some very hostile terrain, like Chicago near Midway, and you are not
stretching fuel, an engine failure is not a serious problem that you will
solve with an extra 1,000 feet.



wrote in message
...
| That's interesting. The GPS 16 approach starts off in Class E then goes
into
| Class C at above 1700 just past the Gugwa (or Brenz) FAF.
|
| It looks like I could shoot the whole approach without talking to Jackson
| approach, although it would be very close. That being said, I've always
got
| the feeling that I should be talking to Jackson approach going into
Hawkins
| which is in Class C. I guess that gives me a little bargaining power.
| However, I have to deal with these controllers all the time and I supposed
| it's not wise to irritate them in this manner. My whole complaint is that
| they ignored my very understandable desire to stay within glide distance,
| which really shouldn't have been a problem for them. It was as though I
were
| inconveniencing them by flying the approach differently, wanting to stay
| higher until the FAF.
|
| Lately, I get the feeling that the Jackson controllers are overwhelmed. I
| flew in tonight, asked for the GPS 16 VFR by my own navigation and was
told
| "unable" when 20 miles out. What the heck does that mean? Unable to what?
| I'm flying the whole thing myself VFR. They don't have to do a thing.
|
|
| "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
| ...
|
| wrote in message
| ...
|
| Let me elaborate: First of all, I am shooting the GPS 16 into KHKS.
This
| involves going to Ocaro and then doing a semi-hold prior to the inbound
| leg. The inbound leg is Ocaro, which is about ten miles from HKS, then
| Gugwa, which is five miles (I guess co-located to Brenz.) Remember, I
am
| single engine so my whole goal is to stay within glide distance.
Outbound
| from the IAF of Ocaro in the pre-approach hold, I am 13 miles from the
| runway, so 4000 is where I want to be if my engine fails. I fly a
Silver
| Eagle with a turbine, so a rapid descent is no problem. At night, I
like
| the structure of an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an
| emergency glide. Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by
| doing so, the controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to
| descend to 2,000 while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the
| runway, for traffic that is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I
say,
| "If you don't mind, I'd like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller
| says, "I do mind. Descend for traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend
| yet. Have traffic visually. Will maintain seperation." Can I continue
on
| my merry way and ignore his command that I descend below a safe gliding
| distance. Or is he going is he going to report me to the FSDO?
|
|
| You're VFR in Class E airspace, if you're not happy tell him bye-bye and
| remain clear of Class C airspace.
|
|
|

wrote in message
...

That's interesting. The GPS 16 approach starts off in Class E then goes
into Class C at above 1700 just past the Gugwa (or Brenz) FAF.


GUGWA looks to be about 2 miles from the Class C boundary, you don't need to
enter Class C airspace at all on that approach.



It looks like I could shoot the whole approach without talking to Jackson
approach, although it would be very close. That being said, I've always
got the feeling that I should be talking to Jackson approach going into
Hawkins which is in Class C. I guess that gives me a little bargaining
power. However, I have to deal with these controllers all the time and I
supposed it's not wise to irritate them in this manner. My whole complaint
is that they ignored my very understandable desire to stay within glide
distance, which really shouldn't have been a problem for them. It was as
though I were inconveniencing them by flying the approach differently,
wanting to stay higher until the FAF.

Lately, I get the feeling that the Jackson controllers are overwhelmed. I
flew in tonight, asked for the GPS 16 VFR by my own navigation and was
told "unable" when 20 miles out. What the heck does that mean? Unable to
what? I'm flying the whole thing myself VFR. They don't have to do a
thing.


It could only mean they're unable to provide separation from IFR aircraft in
the outer area. So tell them good day and continue with your plans, staying
outside of Class C airspace.

True, but it cuts it pretty close. But you can't avoid class C shooting the
GPS 34 into the other runway.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

That's interesting. The GPS 16 approach starts off in Class E then goes
into Class C at above 1700 just past the Gugwa (or Brenz) FAF.


GUGWA looks to be about 2 miles from the Class C boundary, you don't need
to enter Class C airspace at all on that approach.



It looks like I could shoot the whole approach without talking to Jackson
approach, although it would be very close. That being said, I've always
got the feeling that I should be talking to Jackson approach going into
Hawkins which is in Class C. I guess that gives me a little bargaining
power. However, I have to deal with these controllers all the time and I
supposed it's not wise to irritate them in this manner. My whole
complaint is that they ignored my very understandable desire to stay
within glide distance, which really shouldn't have been a problem for
them. It was as though I were inconveniencing them by flying the approach
differently, wanting to stay higher until the FAF.

Lately, I get the feeling that the Jackson controllers are overwhelmed. I
flew in tonight, asked for the GPS 16 VFR by my own navigation and was
told "unable" when 20 miles out. What the heck does that mean? Unable to
what? I'm flying the whole thing myself VFR. They don't have to do a
thing.


It could only mean they're unable to provide separation from IFR aircraft
in the outer area. So tell them good day and continue with your plans,
staying outside of Class C airspace.

On Dec 19, 9:32 am, wrote:

True, but it cuts it pretty close.


It's 1.92 NM from GUGWA to the ten mile Class C ring. A three degree
glidepath begun at GUGWA would put you at about 1300 MSL at the ten
mile ring, 400' below Class C airspace. A constant descent begun at
GUGWA so as to reach the MDA at IHUZU would put you about 1500 MSL at
the ten mile ring, 200' below Class C airspace. Not close at all.

wrote in message
...

So how would you phrase that? "210BA is cancelling flight following and
squawking VFR"?


Something like "210BA is terminating Class C services and squawking VFR"
would be better. You do realize you're getting more than flight following
here, don't you?

On Dec 17, 10:26 pm, wrote:
At night, I like the structure of
an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an emergency glide.
Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by doing so, the
controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to descend to 2,000
while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the runway, for traffic that
is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say, "If you don't mind, I'd
like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller says, "I do mind. Descend for
traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend yet. Have traffic visually. Will
maintain seperation." Can I continue on my merry way and ignore his command
that I descend below a safe gliding distance. Or is he going is he going to
report me to the FSDO?

With all that technology and you had an agenda / flight profile of
your own, and you didn't want or need ATC assistance, why even bother
calling in for VFR flight following? Navigate as you see fit and just
call into Hawkins tower.

Allen

You're right. I've just always felt like talking to approach was the good
citizen thing to do. But if they don't care about my personal safety
concerns, then maybe I should just operate independently.

Jog by memory. What are my requirements to enter Class D. If I recall, I
just have to make radio contact with the tower. What happens when the tower
is closed.

It's so rare I fly outside the system.


wrote in message
...
On Dec 17, 10:26 pm, wrote:
At night, I like the structure of
an instrument approach, but I want the altitude for an emergency glide.
Maybe I shouldn't call it a "practice approach" but by doing so, the
controller knows where I am going and why. He asked me to descend to
2,000
while I am outbound from Ocaro, 13 miles from the runway, for traffic
that
is not a threat an clearly visible to me. I say, "If you don't mind, I'd
like to stay higher until Gugwa." Controller says, "I do mind. Descend
for
traffic." So if I say "Unable to descend yet. Have traffic visually. Will
maintain seperation." Can I continue on my merry way and ignore his
command
that I descend below a safe gliding distance. Or is he going is he going
to
report me to the FSDO?

With all that technology and you had an agenda / flight profile of
your own, and you didn't want or need ATC assistance, why even bother
calling in for VFR flight following? Navigate as you see fit and just
call into Hawkins tower.

Allen