dogfight

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:10:50 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Dec 17, 8:07 pm, Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:11:04 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Dec 15, 6:28 pm, wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

Dude, you're a pilot and you haven't seen the show "Dogflights"!! OMG,
dude you need to try to get all the old episodes and make sure you
Tivo the new ones. There has never been a show more perfect for pilots
than this.

That must be true; it explains why it's been canceled....

I don't see any evidence of that on the History Channel's web site or
at the wikipedia entry for the show. Is there a news release for this?

That's what they seem to be saying on the Forums section of the HC web page.

Ron Wanttaja

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:29:30 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:16:28 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Morgans wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote

The 51 was a fine airplane, and it worked well at all altitudes but it was
nearing the end of its run at the end of the war.
I loved the airplane and flew it often but for me, flying the F8F Bearcat
one sunny afternoon in December, redefined the meaning of the term "prop
fighter performance".
In my opinion, if the war had lingered on and the Bear had been mass
produced for both theaters, the F8F would have not seen its match
anywhere.
Interesting. I had never heard that expressed, before.

Would the F8F had the legs to do the long range bomber escort missions?

As I recall the F8F had the most powerful piston engine ever used in a
fighter. Then later the same engine was used in the Skyraider. Now
there is one BIG airplane! Not very fast, but BIG!

Roger (K8RI)

How about top speeds; was it as fast, or faster than the 51?
The Bear had VERY short legs and even with the drop tank would never
have made it as a long range fighter.
In close, intercept, and shoot it down fast was the Bear's prime
intended function.

Hi Rog;

The Bear can an R2800 in it. The -2 that I flew I believe had a 2800-30
in it. The entire airplane was just a frame to support the engine.
One of the things I liked about the Bear was that Grumman drooped the
nose a bit (they did this on all their prop fighters) so you could
actually see where the hell you were going. It was an awesome airplane.
The prop at rest (had a huge Aero Products on the nose) looked like the
diameter spanned the wing tips :-)) On takeoff, it broke ground before
you could get the throttle up. Unlike the 51, you couldn't allow the
stick to come forward a bit on the takeoff roll because of the severe
lack of tip clearance on the prop. You took off 3 point and you landed 3
point in the Bearcat.
It was and still is a wonderful airplane!
I think I can say with some degree of certainty that Streak wouldn't
**** on the tires of the Bear, it was THAT pretty!!
D

Oh, if it was that pretty it'd be almost a certainty he'd go so far as
to walk up to it standing on his front feet and tail in the air just
to make sure he claimed it as his property, *properly* :-))
You do remember that cats are possessive and quite territorial.

I've only seen one, it was one slick piece of machinery.

Roger (K8RI)

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:29:30 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Roger (K8RI) wrote:
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 17:16:28 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Morgans wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote

The 51 was a fine airplane, and it worked well at all altitudes but it was
nearing the end of its run at the end of the war.
I loved the airplane and flew it often but for me, flying the F8F Bearcat
one sunny afternoon in December, redefined the meaning of the term "prop
fighter performance".
In my opinion, if the war had lingered on and the Bear had been mass
produced for both theaters, the F8F would have not seen its match
anywhere.
Interesting. I had never heard that expressed, before.

Would the F8F had the legs to do the long range bomber escort missions?
As I recall the F8F had the most powerful piston engine ever used in a
fighter. Then later the same engine was used in the Skyraider. Now
there is one BIG airplane! Not very fast, but BIG!

Roger (K8RI)

How about top speeds; was it as fast, or faster than the 51?
The Bear had VERY short legs and even with the drop tank would never
have made it as a long range fighter.
In close, intercept, and shoot it down fast was the Bear's prime
intended function.
Hi Rog;

The Bear can an R2800 in it. The -2 that I flew I believe had a 2800-30
in it. The entire airplane was just a frame to support the engine.
One of the things I liked about the Bear was that Grumman drooped the
nose a bit (they did this on all their prop fighters) so you could
actually see where the hell you were going. It was an awesome airplane.
The prop at rest (had a huge Aero Products on the nose) looked like the
diameter spanned the wing tips :-)) On takeoff, it broke ground before
you could get the throttle up. Unlike the 51, you couldn't allow the
stick to come forward a bit on the takeoff roll because of the severe
lack of tip clearance on the prop. You took off 3 point and you landed 3
point in the Bearcat.
It was and still is a wonderful airplane!
I think I can say with some degree of certainty that Streak wouldn't
**** on the tires of the Bear, it was THAT pretty!!
D

Oh, if it was that pretty it'd be almost a certainty he'd go so far as
to walk up to it standing on his front feet and tail in the air just
to make sure he claimed it as his property, *properly* :-))
You do remember that cats are possessive and quite territorial.

I've only seen one, it was one slick piece of machinery.

Roger (K8RI)

My bad; I meant to say he WOULD **** on the tires!!! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

In article ,
Dave wrote:

Thanks Dale!

Whatta great link! (and a great read)

All versions are there, but the guys/ airplanes who could NOT turn
with them did not file reports afterward..

There are many variables in a turn fight, and although turn radius is
initially important, the ability to retain ENERGY in a turn fight
rapidly becomes the determining factor in retaining what advantage
you may have started with. So... the LONGER the fight, the
plane/pilot that can, 1 - handle the "G"s, and 2- RETAIN energy has
the best chance to win the engagement.


When people talk of "favs" of fighters, not enough credit is often
given to the pilots who made them so..

I have had (and still have) the great privilage of speaking with one
who was there, now quite elderly of course..

But he can easily put perspective on this and other matters of the
time.....

He flew Spits and Hurri's , but was well aquainted with the Stang
drivers who had a squad very close to them..

There is an old saying, "only a fool takes a knife to a gunfight"..
and they were careful not to "'Mix it up" in situations that were not
to their (plane or pilot) advantage. Underestimating either ,
according to him, was costly.

As defenders, the Stang was a poor choice. It was suicide to turn low
and slow with it. The Spit was in it's element as soon as the gear was
up, and, according to him, sometimes WHILE the gear was coming up. The
Stang was light on arms, (no cannons) , and you needed to get a lot
of hits to do serious damage, so you had to "out turn" your opponnent
for some time. The Stang also looses a lot of energy turning tight,
and had a tendency (with the laminar flow wing) to stop flying
suddenly.

The Spit, with the cannons, an early (and often "lucky", - according
to him) short burst on the mark, and the fight was over.

He claimed he could EASILY out turn the Stang, more so with the Mk5
Spit, which he liked the best. (they used to "compare" planes, - he
did not elaborate.. )

He said they left the high fights to the Stang drivers . The Spit
was " totally out of breath for fighting at high alt" (his words) and
was "the knife in the gunfight" above 15000 ft.

Command was constantly telling the Stang squads, DO NOT follow the
fight "down" .

"Pick the fight you can win" he says.. "If you don't have the
advantage, get away"....

He came home...

He is getting quite feeble now, but I was present a while back when he
kept a group of RC pilots spell bound for an hour....

There are not many still with us...

Dave

I wouldn't tell any 352FG guys that the Mustang wasn't a good defense
fighter...google January 1, 1945. G

Certainly a Spitfire is going to "outturn" a Mustang, it has a better
power to weight ratio.

As for the Mustangs "stop flying suddenly"...I don't buy it. I have a
whopping 1 hour of Mustang time but found that it warns you quite well
of the impending stall. Mustang pilots I've talked to say the same
thing.

I just wanted to point out that the Mustang can "dogfight". I
understand the dynamics of air to air combat (albeit all of my fights
have been a computer sim, the rules still apply - except you don't
actually bleed G) and believe it's the pilot that wins the fight, not
the airplane.

I'm traveling to Memphis next month to attend the 85th birthday bash of
a 307th FS, 31st FG Mustang pilot. It is wonderful to be able to talk
to the guys from WWII. I regret that I didn't start listening to them
sooner.

Dale

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 22:24:25 -0800, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:

On Tue, 18 Dec 2007 20:10:50 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Dec 17, 8:07 pm, Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:11:04 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Dec 15, 6:28 pm, wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

Dude, you're a pilot and you haven't seen the show "Dogflights"!! OMG,
dude you need to try to get all the old episodes and make sure you
Tivo the new ones. There has never been a show more perfect for pilots
than this.

That must be true; it explains why it's been canceled....

I don't see any evidence of that on the History Channel's web site or
at the wikipedia entry for the show. Is there a news release for this?

That's what they seem to be saying on the Forums section of the HC web page.

They must have forgotten. It was on this morning (Wed) for two hours
and I think it's listed for 6 times on Friday witht he first being at
8:00AM and a bunch in the evening starting around 8:00 PM. I only
listed out the ones in HD, but it's a long way from being canceled.

They use a mix of real life, gun camera, archival, and gasp sim
footage to explain or demonstrate specifics of given confrontations.

Roger (K8RI)

Ron Wanttaja

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:07:38 -0800, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:11:04 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:

On Dec 15, 6:28 pm, wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

Dude, you're a pilot and you haven't seen the show "Dogflights"!! OMG,
dude you need to try to get all the old episodes and make sure you
Tivo the new ones. There has never been a show more perfect for pilots
than this.

That must be true; it explains why it's been canceled....

Still on here via DISH Network although the shows are now into reruns.

Roger (K8RI)

Ron Wanttaja

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 21:24:30 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip
wrote:

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in news:b722a123-240d-4475-bab9-
:

On Dec 15, 6:28 pm, wrote:
A buddy of mine recorded some History Channel show and I watched it.
The show was "Dogfight", and this episode was on P-51s fighting
ME109s, FW190, ME262s, and some Japanese planes.

Dude, you're a pilot and you haven't seen the show "Dogflights"!! OMG,
dude you need to try to get all the old episodes and make sure you
Tivo the new ones. There has never been a show more perfect for pilots
than this.
-Robert


Well, maybe the Emmanualle series.

Ahhh.. Bertie, we're talking airplanes here, not "submarine races"
:-)) Although you do have a point.

Roger


Bertie

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:20:36 -0500, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

That must be true; it explains why it's been canceled....

I don't see any evidence of that on the History Channel's web site or
at the wikipedia entry for the show. Is there a news release for this?

That's what they seem to be saying on the Forums section of the HC web page.

They must have forgotten. It was on this morning (Wed) for two hours
and I think it's listed for 6 times on Friday witht he first being at
8:00AM and a bunch in the evening starting around 8:00 PM. I only
listed out the ones in HD, but it's a long way from being canceled.

"Canceled," I think, in whether they're still going to make new episodes. Lotsa
shows on cable continue to run and just repeat the same shows.

One of the forum pages says, "...someone who works at the History Channel who
told me that the decision to pull the show happened back in October (after one
night of a ratings dip when the show moved to Thursday) All the shows you have
seen were already in the works when the decision was made. There are only a few
more episodes left."

They also ran something like four new episodes in one week; kind of a sign
they're just dumping them.

Ron Wanttaja

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:46:28 -0800, Ron Wanttaja
wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:20:36 -0500, "Roger (K8RI)" wrote:

That must be true; it explains why it's been canceled....

I don't see any evidence of that on the History Channel's web site or
at the wikipedia entry for the show. Is there a news release for this?

That's what they seem to be saying on the Forums section of the HC web page.

They must have forgotten. It was on this morning (Wed) for two hours
and I think it's listed for 6 times on Friday witht he first being at
8:00AM and a bunch in the evening starting around 8:00 PM. I only
listed out the ones in HD, but it's a long way from being canceled.

"Canceled," I think, in whether they're still going to make new episodes. Lotsa
shows on cable continue to run and just repeat the same shows.
Run and run and run and ...

Makes sense.


One of the forum pages says, "...someone who works at the History Channel who
told me that the decision to pull the show happened back in October (after one
night of a ratings dip when the show moved to Thursday) All the shows you have

These are very low budget shows with mainly archival and sim footage
narrated and you have to admit the audience would be rather
limited/specialized. It's not as if they compete against anything, or
OTOH they compete against everything. For most of the audience these
are the shows, actually channels/networks that most people watch when
there is little else one. It's only for a few of us that they are
primary shows. That and the big games and reality show the general
public watch are what send me too these networks. Besides, many of
these shows are pretty spectacular in HD and wide screen. At least
wide screen for a small living room. :-))

seen were already in the works when the decision was made. There are only a few
more episodes left."

And I believe there is a sweeps week coming up, or at least a preview
for new shows.

Not many of the series on this group of channels are noted for long
life.


They also ran something like four new episodes in one week; kind of a sign
they're just dumping them.

Yup! Pretty good indication.

Roger (K8RI)

Ron Wanttaja

On Dec 19, 7:46 pm, Ron Wanttaja wrote:

"Canceled," I think, in whether they're still going to make new episodes. Lotsa
shows on cable continue to run and just repeat the same shows.

It seems like a pretty popular show to be canceled. Perhaps another
network will purchase it. I can't seem to figure out who makes the
show (that's not uncommon, some networks don't want the production
company to advertise the fact that they produce the show to avoid
confusing people). My brother is a TV producer and has access to a DB
that should tell us what the production company is. It would be
interesting to know if they are shoping it to other venues.

-robert