AoA keep it going!

On Dec 19, 12:22 pm, John Smith wrote:
kirk.stant wrote:
Now, if all gliders had AoA gauges, you could jump from one glider to
another and not worry about what the right approach speed is for the
glider you happen to be in.

Whatever happened to the old fashioned custom to familiarize oneself
with the particularities of a glider before flying it?

That's a great custom, which I wholeheartedly endorse. Now, put
yourself in the postion to jump into a variety of gliders in rapid
succession. You are current and qualified in all of them, of course.
But can you instantly recall the exact speeds for all of them, under
pressure, without fail?

My personal experience was in giving commercial rides (sightseeing and
aerobatic) in 2-33s, 2-32s, G-103s, and ASK-21s. With a wide variety
of passenger size, in no particular order, often moving to a different
glider immediately after landing.

Fortunately, one soon learns the individual characteristics of the
gliders one flies frequently, and on a nice big field, a little extra
airspeed doesn't hurt until you slow down in the flare. So TLAR works
surprisingly well.

But it would still be nice to have ACCURATE instrumentation. While
airspeed works, it is by design only an approximation of the correct
speed. We are lucky that most gliders are so forgiving that this is
mainly an academic argument. Now, get slow on your turn to final in a
2-32 and you may wish you had an AoA indicator!

Right now, the closest we have is the yellow triangle on german
gliders - approach speed at max gross, I think? (please correct me if
I'm wrong on that one).

Nothing to do with German, it's a JAR requirement. Suggested minimal
approach speed at max gross without water ballast. The triangle is
handy, but just reading the POH works, too.

Absolutely correct. I find that I don't use it in my own ship, but
look for it when I get in a club ship that I havn't flown in a while -
as a starting point for pattern speed.

Kirk

kirk.stant wrote:

That's a great custom, which I wholeheartedly endorse. Now, put
yourself in the postion to jump into a variety of gliders in rapid
succession. You are current and qualified in all of them, of course.
But can you instantly recall the exact speeds for all of them, under
pressure, without fail?

Yes. But if I really couldn't and were in the situation you describe, I
just would write them into a little booklet which I could take with me
and consult before getting into the glider. Just as I do with many other
things. (Besides: If you can't remember the exact speeds to fly, why
should you be able to remember the exact AoA to fly?)

My personal experience was in giving commercial rides (sightseeing and
aerobatic) in 2-33s, 2-32s, G-103s, and ASK-21s. With a wide variety
of passenger size, in no particular order, often moving to a different
glider immediately after landing.

I shudder at the thought that a pilot would give commercial rides to
passengers without being absolutely sure of the exact speeds to fly!

But it would still be nice to have ACCURATE instrumentation. While
airspeed works, it is by design only an approximation of the correct
speed.

It may not be ACCURATE, but it certainly is accurate enough. For me, anyway.

Now, get slow on your turn to final in a
2-32 and you may wish you had an AoA indicator!

The solution is simple: Just don't get slow on your turn to final. This
has been hammered into my head since my very first flight, and it works
for me. I don't see what an AoA instrument could add to this. If you are
distracted enough to get slow with an ASI, then I see no reason why you
wouldn't be distracted enough to get slow with an AoAI.

On Dec 19, 3:43 pm, John Smith wrote:
....snip...
for me. I don't see what an AoA instrument could add to this. If you are
distracted enough to get slow with an ASI, then I see no reason why you
wouldn't be distracted enough to get slow with an AoAI.

This seems to be the real reason people stall. It's not that they
don't know what the speed is, it's that they can't maintain the speed
that they do know !

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
On Dec 19, 3:43 pm, John Smith wrote:
...snip...
for me. I don't see what an AoA instrument could add to this. If you are
distracted enough to get slow with an ASI, then I see no reason why you
wouldn't be distracted enough to get slow with an AoAI.

This seems to be the real reason people stall. It's not that they
don't know what the speed is, it's that they can't maintain the speed
that they do know !

An indicator for an AoA meter could consist of something as simple as
three LEDs, say a bright red one for approaching stall, green for
minimum sink, blue for best L/D and above, with the red LED blinking
faster as AoA gets closer to stall. The LEDs could be mounted on a
short stick above the instrument glare shield, or even attached to
sunglasses such that it would always be at the edge of the field of
view. All the interpretation required is that the bright flashing red
light means get the nose down, right now.

No one has said anything about taking away anyones ASI...

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:

An indicator for an AoA meter could consist of something as simple as
three LEDs, say a bright red one for approaching stall, green for
minimum sink, blue for best L/D and above, with the red LED blinking
faster as AoA gets closer to stall. The LEDs could be mounted on a
short stick above the instrument glare shield, or even attached to
sunglasses

Or even better, install a fist which knocks your head every time you get
slow... I still can't see the advantage of three LEDs over one pointer.
Obviously I'm getting old...

John Smith wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:

An indicator for an AoA meter could consist of something as simple as
three LEDs, say a bright red one for approaching stall, green for
minimum sink, blue for best L/D and above, with the red LED blinking
faster as AoA gets closer to stall. The LEDs could be mounted on a
short stick above the instrument glare shield, or even attached to
sunglasses

Or even better, install a fist which knocks your head every time you get
slow... I still can't see the advantage of three LEDs over one pointer.
Obviously I'm getting old...

Yes, I'm sure someone could provide you with the option of a knock in
the head or even an electric shock (non-lethal, I'd assume), if you
prefer. The problem with pointers is that they don't do much good if
you're currently looking at something else.

Marc

On 19 Dec, 21:26, Marc Ramsey wrote:

An indicator for an AoA meter could consist of something as simple as
three LEDs, say a bright red one for approaching stall, green for
minimum sink, blue for best L/D and above, with the red LED blinking
faster as AoA gets closer to stall.

My glider does all sorts of things as it approaches stall. It gets
awful quiet. The stick starts shaking. The vario plummets. If I manage
to miss all these clear signs, why would a small flashing red light
grab my attention?

And can you imagine what would happen with a stall warning sounder?
Pilots used to flying with gear-down warnings would anxiously check he
undercarriage lever ... subconsciously pulling back to give themselves
a bit more time ...

Ian

Ian wrote:
On 19 Dec, 21:26, Marc Ramsey wrote:

An indicator for an AoA meter could consist of something as simple as
three LEDs, say a bright red one for approaching stall, green for
minimum sink, blue for best L/D and above, with the red LED blinking
faster as AoA gets closer to stall.

My glider does all sorts of things as it approaches stall. It gets
awful quiet. The stick starts shaking. The vario plummets. If I manage
to miss all these clear signs, why would a small flashing red light
grab my attention?

Because, unless you're offering an open invitation for me to fly your
glider, I've flown a number that don't give such clear signs,
particularly in landing flap.

And can you imagine what would happen with a stall warning sounder?
Pilots used to flying with gear-down warnings would anxiously check he
undercarriage lever ... subconsciously pulling back to give themselves
a bit more time ...

Did I say anything about a sounder?

Marc

On 19 Dec, 21:59, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Ian wrote:

My glider does all sorts of things as it approaches stall. It gets
awful quiet. The stick starts shaking. The vario plummets. If I manage
to miss all these clear signs, why would a small flashing red light
grab my attention?

Because, unless you're offering an open invitation for me to fly your
glider, I've flown a number that don't give such clear signs,
particularly in landing flap.

Fair point. Assuming you are current and can cope with wood, you are
welcome to fly the Pirat!

And can you imagine what would happen with a stall warning sounder?
Pilots used to flying with gear-down warnings would anxiously check he
undercarriage lever ... subconsciously pulling back to give themselves
a bit more time ...

Did I say anything about a sounder?

Did I say you did? There has, though, been plenty of discussion of
stall warning devices here in the past.

Ian

On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:53:20 -0800 (PST), Ian
wrote:


And can you imagine what would happen with a stall warning sounder?
Pilots used to flying with gear-down warnings would anxiously check he
undercarriage lever ... subconsciously pulling back to give themselves
a bit more time ...

Correct.

I once had the pleasure to see a live performance of one of the oldest
aircraft-related jokes:
Belly landing of our ASW-24. One could hear the gear warning all over
the airfield. Pilot got out and commented that he was wondering where
all that noise was suddenly coming from during his final approach.


Bye
Andreas