Fly Boy ?????

From: artkramr@ao

Did the pilots check the gunners on the intercom before
they assumed they had bailed out?

Intercom hors de combat.


Chris Mark

Is it just me, or am I the only one offended by the title "Fly Boy"? Anybody
ever hear of an 18 or 19 year old infantryman called an Infantry Boy, or
Infantry Kid? Or a 17 year old Marine Child?

Fly Boy indeed. They were men grown old before their time making life and death
decisions, and not always the right ones. To call them "Boys" trivializes what
they went through.

Call me sensitive, but I'm really offended by that title.

George Z.

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "George Z. Bush" am
Date: 10/23/03 6:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Is it just me, or am I the only one offended by the title "Fly Boy"? Anybody
ever hear of an 18 or 19 year old infantryman called an Infantry Boy, or
Infantry Kid? Or a 17 year old Marine Child?

Fly Boy indeed. They were men grown old before their time making life and
death
decisions, and not always the right ones. To call them "Boys" trivializes
what
they went through.

Call me sensitive, but I'm really offended by that title.

George Z.




It was part of the English language. We were all called Fly Boys since the
earliest days of WW II. Your objejctions come 65 years too late.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 10/22/03 10:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From: artkramr@ao

Did the pilots check the gunners on the intercom before
they assumed they had bailed out?

Intercom hors de combat.


Chris Mark

Might of known.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Erik Pfeister"
Date: 10/20/03 6:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


"Ron" wrote in message

Lets assume that half of it is true.But I think the wirters were doing a
sales
job to engrandise the Bush name for the next election.

Art, I think you are a bit better than that. Just because you are not a
fan of
the Bushes, does not mean you should denegrate the author of the book. I
see
no reason to attack the author like that.

Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter


If you ignore the jealous old fart he will go away.



Sounds to me llike you are the jealous fart.

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Erik Pfeister"
Date: 10/21/03 2:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of
those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was a
famous
footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17 pilot. His
plane was
severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and survived. But not a
single one
of hsd crew did. There were accusations that he lost his nerve and
bailed
before his crew could get out. And they all died because of his
cowardice.
Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that
lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever I hear of a
pilot
that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it brings back the memory
of
that WW II incident.
And there many of us who will never forget it.

As usual Dum-dum got it wrong again.

Tom Harmon of Michigan was the supposed culprit.

It was a B-25 not a B-17 as the "legend in his own mind" writes!


But you don't deny the fact that the son of a bitch bailed out and his crew
perished do you?

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: ost (Chris Mark)
Date: 10/22/03 10:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

From Art Kramer:

To second guess the decisions of any person caught in such a circumstance,
wherein life changed in the blink of an eye, could possibly result in a
slanderous injustice to that person......although, when all is considered
in
a
war zone wherein death, mutilation, and crippling are occurring on an
industrial scale, a slander is the pettiest of an injustice one can suffer.

Just an observation.
Dave

True. But he still would be suspect since most would not know the details
fo
the loss. When a crew is lost and only a pilot survives, questions will be
asked no matter what.

On March 20, 1945 on a mission to Campo, near the Austrian border, B25J
#327487 received a direct hit by an 88MM shell and went down. Crew included
Mack Coneglio, Granger McKinnan, Racetlo and Zawestowski. Mack (pilot) was
the
sole survivor and spent the remainder of the war in Mooseburg Prison Camp.
So instances of only the pilot surviving as a matter of luck did occur. Of
course, in most cases no one knew who--if any--of a crew that went down over
enemy territory survived. They just weren't around anymore.


Chris Mark

True. But that small lingering doubt always wll remain since the pilot is
responsible for his crew.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:


It was part of the English language. We were all called Fly Boys since the
earliest days of WW II. Your objejctions come 65 years too late.

Arthur Kramer


The only dictionary I can find it in is the the OED, which lists it as
U.S. Slang applied specifically to Pilots.

My 1958 unabridged Websters doesn't even list it.

I have heard it used as a derogatory term in both military and civilian
aviation circles during the 50s through to the 90s. Although I do seem
to recall it being used in some popular songs, literaure and newsmedia
in the 40s.


Dave

From: artkramr@a

That small lingering doubt always wll remain since the pilot is
responsible for his crew.

Can't get away from that. When I heard the story of Bush 41 surviving while
his crew perished I experienced a mental "Hmmm," but never went beyond that,
not knowing the details. I caught the author of "Flyboys" on C-Span recently
and listened to his presentation, as a result of which I ordered through our
local library the book, which hasn't come in yet. I hope it will clear up
doubts about what happened with Bush, as well as explain Japanese actions. The
author seems to have spent as much time looking at Japanese motives from the
Japanese perspective as looking at the American side--something that's pretty
rare.
But I'm willing to give Bush the benefit of the doubt. War is full of queer
turns of fate. I'm reminded of the story of Lee McAllister, pilot of a B-25
shot down while on a mission to knock out a bridge over the Adige in the
Lagarina Valley. He was the last man out. He kept the plane on an even keel as
its load of WP (for dumping on the flak guns surrounding the bridge) burned so
that everyone could get out. Then he didn't have the easiest time getting out
himself. As a result, while the rest of his crew landed close together and
were quickly rounded up by the Germans and herded into PoW camps where they
survived the war, he came down some distance away and was rescued by Italian
partisans. Lucky him, right? Except that after a few desperate weeks on the
run, the Germans caught him. The gestapo tortured him for days to force him to
tell details of the partisan operation. He defied them, revealing nothing. So
they put a pistol to the back of his head, shot him and dumped his body along a
roadside. Details of his fate only emerged years after the war. He was just a
kid from Salem, Ore. who had a rotten run of luck. One of so very many.


Chris Mark

When I heard the story of Bush 41 surviving while
his crew perished I experienced a mental "Hmmm," but never went beyond that,
not knowing the details.

As a Navy backseater, I think we all went HMMMMMM when we heard the story the
first time.

I caught the author of "Flyboys" on C-Span recently
and listened to his presentation, as a result of which I ordered through our
local library the book, which hasn't come in yet. I hope it will clear up
doubts about what happened with Bush, as well as explain Japanese actions.
The
author seems to have spent as much time looking at Japanese motives from the
Japanese perspective as looking at the American side--something that's pretty
rare.

Your assessment is spot-on. The book does exactly this: it gives historical
background to the imperial "climate" that the Japanese faced from European and
American expansion in Asia, giving it as the main reason for the Japanese
military's climb to power and ultimate defeat. It gives an unflinching look
into how we were viewed by the Japanese, and just as importantly, why we were
seen that way. It was a grisly, horrible little book that I think deserves a
read, if only to answer the questions about Bush and the Japanese motivation
for what happened on Chichi Jima and other hellish places to die in the
Pacific.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."