2007 US Contest Rules Poll and Meeting Minutes

On Dec 19, 10:53 am, BB wrote:
Would the cylinder still work the same way if you pierce the edge at
400agl at 120 knots at 1 mile then 15-60 seconds later pull up to
500agl will the scoring program award you which ever is the more
advantageous score? [earlier vs higher?]

Like Hank said, you get the most advantageous score. Rules aside
though, I would hope any CD who saw this maneuver either in person or
on a trace would slap the pilot with a huge unsafe flying penalty.
Lots of gliders are finishing, and you can't see the guy behind and
above you who you just pulled up into -- and he can't see you either.
This isn't just theory. I have had a glider dive over the top of me
right at the finish cylinder, missing by 20 feet -- good thing I
didn't do any pulling up, or I wouldn't be here writing right now.
Please just cross the cylinder wall at your final glide speed, then
gently slow down and enter the pattern. The manever you describe also
wastes points -- the pilot would have done better by simply gliding at
90 knots to the cylinder wall.

John Cochrane.

Interesting. Since the bloody cylinder finish is all about safety,
why not only allow the first point of entry to count for score, and
remove the incentive to pull up inside the cylinder if finishing
slightly low? Obviously, if you have the energy to get back up above
500 ft after entering the cylinder, you had the energy to finish above
500ft in the first place. Unless the finish is on a ridge, of
course....

On second thought, it still encourages pulling up to cross at 501 ft,
instead of 499, and losing a few points...so the safety advantage is
somewhat illusory. Better to enforce penalizing dangerous flying in
the cylinder/during the finish/in the pattern.

Seriously, if the low finish penalty is 2pts for every 10 ft, how will
Winscore handle a 2 or 3 foot low finish? Is it all or nothing? O pts
for 2 ft low, 1 point for 3 feet low, 2 points for 1 ft low? Just
curious...

Better to hash this out amicably when the field is covered with snow
than on the grid during the first contest of the season!

Happy Holiday, all

66

On Dec 19, 6:18 am, Chip Bearden wrote:
On Dec 18, 6:07 pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Chip,
Do I detect a rather large tongue in a small cheek, here? I don't see
any way you could be given a finish circle penalty, if you were scored
as a land-out.

JJ,

Not until I started reading the rules with this whole concept in mind
that I realized technically you can get a finish (by entering the
finish cylinder) but not complete the task (because you land on the
wrong side of the airport fence). To me "good finish" and speed points
were synonomous. So depending on how the rules are written AND (more
important) how WinScore treats it, I can see a situation--a big finish
circle displaced from the contest site and a low final glide from the
wrong direction (i.e., passing over the center of the finish circle to
get to the contest site) where someone might get distance points and
still get nailed with a low finish penalty.

Stranger things have happened. I alluded to the problem at Fairfield
Reg. 4N in October. We used two different start cylinders on different
days because of the TFR over Camp David. One pilot missed the change
and started out of the wrong cylinder, which was farther from the
contest site. So he did not have a valid start. He didn't miss it by
much so we all assumed he'd get a penalty, as below:

10.8.5.4 A pilot may claim a start when no fix is within the Start
Cylinder; such a start
incurs a penalty. [more details]

But he had flown THROUGH the correct start cylinder before it opened
on the way to the wrong cylinder so technically speaking (per the
Rules and WinScore), he wasn't entitled to a start with a penalty;
i.e., he had no start at all.

The start cylinder is defined by:

10.8.5.2 The Start Point, Start Radius, and MSH define a three-
dimensional Start Cylinder. [end of paragraph]

Per this paragraph, the start cylinder exists 24/7, it's just not open
for valid starts until the CD says it is. And the pilot had flown
through it a few minutes before it opened so he had fixes in the
cylinder. Which means he wasn't entitled to claim a start with a
penalty.

After some spirited late evening, post-refreshment discussion, calls
to the Rules Committee were made ("boy, you guys really screwed up big
time now, what the @!$% do you mean he's not entitled to the
penalty?") and the matter was resolved intelligently.

WinScore only flags events that may be a penalty.................it's
up to the CD to look and decide on any penalty.
Enough of this..............someone ask what's the best wax to use!
JJ

Perhaps you can understand why I raised the issue. With only a handful
of pilots in this country able to understand the current scoring
formulas, we're at the mercy of WinScore when it comes to points. And
the computer does exactly what it's told to do. If it's told to
subtract X points if a pilot finishes below Y feet, it must also be
told to verify whether that pilot completed the task or otherwise make
certain the penalty isn't applied to distance points.

I can't wait for spring for someone to try this out at a contest...

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

On Dec 19, 12:32 pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Dec 19, 10:53 am, BB wrote:





Would the cylinder still work the same way if you pierce the edge at
400agl at 120 knots at 1 mile then 15-60 seconds later pull up to
500agl will the scoring program award you which ever is the more
advantageous score? [earlier vs higher?]

Like Hank said, you get the most advantageous score. Rules aside
though, I would hope any CD who saw this maneuver either in person or
on a trace would slap the pilot with a huge unsafe flying penalty.
Lots of gliders are finishing, and you can't see the guy behind and
above you who you just pulled up into -- and he can't see you either.
This isn't just theory. I have had a glider dive over the top of me
right at the finish cylinder, missing by 20 feet -- good thing I
didn't do any pulling up, or I wouldn't be here writing right now.
Please just cross the cylinder wall at your final glide speed, then
gently slow down and enter the pattern. The manever you describe also
wastes points -- the pilot would have done better by simply gliding at
90 knots to the cylinder wall.

John Cochrane.

Interesting. Since the bloody cylinder finish is all about safety,
why not only allow the first point of entry to count for score, and
remove the incentive to pull up inside the cylinder if finishing
slightly low? Obviously, if you have the energy to get back up above
500 ft after entering the cylinder, you had the energy to finish above
500ft in the first place. Unless the finish is on a ridge, of
course....

On second thought, it still encourages pulling up to cross at 501 ft,
instead of 499, and losing a few points...so the safety advantage is
somewhat illusory. Better to enforce penalizing dangerous flying in
the cylinder/during the finish/in the pattern.

Seriously, if the low finish penalty is 2pts for every 10 ft, how will
Winscore handle a 2 or 3 foot low finish? Is it all or nothing? O pts
for 2 ft low, 1 point for 3 feet low, 2 points for 1 ft low? Just
curious...

Better to hash this out amicably when the field is covered with snow
than on the grid during the first contest of the season!

Happy Holiday, all

66- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You get the highest score by going through the side of the cylinder
which
represents the shortest path. In any case, first fix in the cylinder
stops the clock.
Small misses get small penalty.
Best bet is for pilots to simply avoid the problem with good judgement
and finish
50 ft high.
UH

On Dec 19, 1:27 pm, wrote:

Best bet is for pilots to simply avoid the problem with good judgement
and finish 50 ft high.

1. If we had good judgement, we wouldn't need all these nit-picky
rules.

2. If we had really good judgement, we wouldn't be racing aircraft
without engines - what if the wind quits!

Believe me, I learned my lesson about shaving the finish this season!
I also leaned to find out everything about the rules beforehand -
preferably from the experts, like you, UH!

Kirk
66

On Dec 19, 2:44 pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Dec 19, 1:27 pm, wrote:

Best bet is for pilots to simply avoid the problem with good judgement
and finish 50 ft high.

1. If we had good judgement, we wouldn't need all these nit-picky
rules.

2. If we had really good judgement, we wouldn't be racing aircraft
without engines - what if the wind quits!

Believe me, I learned my lesson about shaving the finish this season!
I also leaned to find out everything about the rules beforehand -
preferably from the experts, like you, UH!

Kirk
66

Suck UP!

I get confused when you mention snow......what's that?

On Dec 19, 9:48 am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
On Dec 19, 6:18 am, Chip Bearden wrote:



On Dec 18, 6:07 pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Chip,
Do I detect a rather large tongue in a small cheek, here? I don't see
any way you could be given a finish circle penalty, if you were scored
as a land-out.

JJ,

Not until I started reading the rules with this whole concept in mind
that I realized technically you can get a finish (by entering the
finish cylinder) but not complete the task (because you land on the
wrong side of the airport fence). To me "good finish" and speed points
were synonomous. So depending on how the rules are written AND (more
important) how WinScore treats it, I can see a situation--a big finish
circle displaced from the contest site and a low final glide from the
wrong direction (i.e., passing over the center of the finish circle to
get to the contest site) where someone might get distance points and
still get nailed with a low finish penalty.

Stranger things have happened. I alluded to the problem at Fairfield
Reg. 4N in October. We used two different start cylinders on different
days because of the TFR over Camp David. One pilot missed the change
and started out of the wrong cylinder, which was farther from the
contest site. So he did not have a valid start. He didn't miss it by
much so we all assumed he'd get a penalty, as below:

10.8.5.4 A pilot may claim a start when no fix is within the Start
Cylinder; such a start
incurs a penalty. [more details]

But he had flown THROUGH the correct start cylinder before it opened
on the way to the wrong cylinder so technically speaking (per the
Rules and WinScore), he wasn't entitled to a start with a penalty;
i.e., he had no start at all.

The start cylinder is defined by:

10.8.5.2 The Start Point, Start Radius, and MSH define a three-
dimensional Start Cylinder. [end of paragraph]

Per this paragraph, the start cylinder exists 24/7, it's just not open
for valid starts until the CD says it is. And the pilot had flown
through it a few minutes before it opened so he had fixes in the
cylinder. Which means he wasn't entitled to claim a start with a
penalty.

After some spirited late evening, post-refreshment discussion, calls
to the Rules Committee were made ("boy, you guys really screwed up big
time now, what the @!$% do you mean he's not entitled to the
penalty?") and the matter was resolved intelligently.

WinScore only flags events that may be a penalty.................it's
up to the CD to look and decide on any penalty.
Enough of this..............someone ask what's the best wax to use!
JJ



Perhaps you can understand why I raised the issue. With only a handful
of pilots in this country able to understand the current scoring
formulas, we're at the mercy of WinScore when it comes to points. And
the computer does exactly what it's told to do. If it's told to
subtract X points if a pilot finishes below Y feet, it must also be
told to verify whether that pilot completed the task or otherwise make
certain the penalty isn't applied to distance points.

I can't wait for spring for someone to try this out at a contest...

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Whats the best wax to use? I am assuming it must have silicone in it.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Dec 19, 4:57�pm, Richard wrote:
On Dec 19, 9:48 am, JJ Sinclair wrote:





On Dec 19, 6:18 am, Chip Bearden wrote:

On Dec 18, 6:07 pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:

Chip,
Do I detect a rather large tongue in a small cheek, here? I don't see
any way you could be given a finish circle penalty, if you were scored
as a land-out.

JJ,

Not until I started reading the rules with this whole concept in mind
that I realized technically you can get a finish (by entering the
finish cylinder) but not complete the task (because you land on the
wrong side of the airport fence). To me "good finish" and speed points
were synonomous. So depending on how the rules are written AND (more
important) how WinScore treats it, I can see a situation--a big finish
circle displaced from the contest site and a low final glide from the
wrong direction (i.e., passing over the center of the finish circle to
get to the contest site) where someone might get distance points and
still get nailed with a low finish penalty.

Stranger things have happened. I alluded to the problem at Fairfield
Reg. 4N in October. We used two different start cylinders on different
days because of the TFR over Camp David. One pilot missed the change
and started out of the wrong cylinder, which was farther from the
contest site. So he did not have a valid start. He didn't miss it by
much so we all assumed he'd get a penalty, as below:

10.8.5.4 A pilot may claim a start when no fix is within the Start
Cylinder; such a start
incurs a penalty. [more details]

But he had flown THROUGH the correct start cylinder before it opened
on the way to the wrong cylinder so technically speaking (per the
Rules and WinScore), he wasn't entitled to a start with a penalty;
i.e., he had no start at all.

The start cylinder is defined by:

10.8.5.2 The Start Point, Start Radius, and MSH define a three-
dimensional Start Cylinder. [end of paragraph]

Per this paragraph, the start cylinder exists 24/7, it's just not open
for valid starts until the CD says it is. And the pilot had flown
through it a few minutes before it opened so he had fixes in the
cylinder. Which means he wasn't entitled to claim a start with a
penalty.

After some spirited late evening, post-refreshment discussion, calls
to the Rules Committee were made ("boy, you guys really screwed up big
time now, what the @!$% do you mean he's not entitled to the
penalty?") and the matter was resolved intelligently.

WinScore only flags events that may be a penalty.................it's
up to the CD to look and decide on any penalty.
Enough of this..............someone ask what's the best wax to use!
JJ

Perhaps you can understand why I raised the issue. With only a handful
of pilots in this country able to understand the current scoring
formulas, we're at the mercy of WinScore when it comes to points. And
the computer does exactly what it's told to do. If it's told to
subtract X points if a pilot finishes below Y feet, it must also be
told to verify whether that pilot completed the task or otherwise make
certain the penalty isn't applied to distance points.

I can't wait for spring for someone to try this out at a contest...

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Whats the best wax to use? �I am assuming it must have silicone in it.

Richardwww.craggyaero.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Snow for a Southern Californian is called ....dang.....ruff..........

Ya, yep, sure is.........best wax......is that soar..ta like being
a ...polished...sitter...........

.................NBA is now going to allow for the ball to go up thur
the hoop and then be pulled back down...........
..................NFL is removing the crossbar......just as long as
ball gets into the stands.... fans will be happier.........
.........hmmmmmmm....gps altitude is not created equal, something
like 1.5 X horizonal error for just a starter.
......To hear woop woop pull up pull up glide low.......need radar
altimeter..........or suck up............
..........so whats a few more bucks and a guy going
do............WTF.........

Like Hank said, you get the most advantageous score. Rules aside
though, I would hope any CD who saw this maneuver either in person or
on a trace would slap the pilot with a huge unsafe flying penalty.
Lots of gliders are finishing, and you can't see the guy behind and
above you who you just pulled up into -- and he can't see you either.
This isn't just theory. I have had a glider dive over the top of me
right at the finish cylinder, missing by 20 feet -- good thing I
didn't do any pulling up, or I wouldn't be here writing right now.

BB,

Wow, sounds like this whole finish cylinder thing is pretty dangerous!
And way too complicated to be thinking about at low altitude when we
should be focusing on flying the glider. Better to just aim at the
good ole finish line. No calculations to consider. You can actually
SEE it! Everybody tries to cross at about the same spot going in the
same direction. And if you're marginal, everyone knows you're landing
straight ahead whereas if you just nick the cylinder floor, you're
still flying who knows where? I think we should revisit this. There
was a theory I heard about: KISS...

It's snowing here. Again. On top of the frozen sleet. Which is on top
of the snow. Which is on top of the ice.

JB

On Dec 19, 6:23 pm, Chip Bearden wrote:
Like Hank said, you get the most advantageous score. Rules aside
though, I would hope any CD who saw this maneuver either in person or
on a trace would slap the pilot with a huge unsafe flying penalty.
Lots of gliders are finishing, and you can't see the guy behind and
above you who you just pulled up into -- and he can't see you either.
This isn't just theory. I have had a glider dive over the top of me
right at the finish cylinder, missing by 20 feet -- good thing I
didn't do any pulling up, or I wouldn't be here writing right now.

BB,

Wow, sounds like this whole finish cylinder thing is pretty dangerous!
And way too complicated to be thinking about at low altitude when we
should be focusing on flying the glider. Better to just aim at the
good ole finish line. No calculations to consider. You can actually
SEE it! Everybody tries to cross at about the same spot going in the
same direction. And if you're marginal, everyone knows you're landing
straight ahead whereas if you just nick the cylinder floor, you're
still flying who knows where? I think we should revisit this. There
was a theory I heard about: KISS...

It's snowing here. Again. On top of the frozen sleet. Which is on top
of the snow. Which is on top of the ice.

JB

Now if we can do something about the unreasonable start cylinder
penalty. Most I have seen are nearly 150 points if you are not in the
cylinder for the full 2 minutes. On a three hour task this is equal
to about a 27 minute penalty.

Tim