Fly Boy ?????

Steven asked:
I would think the operator would have better information on the ditching
behavior than would the manufacturer.

How so? The manufacturer designed the darned thing. The flight manual stated
the limitations for various conditions and emergencies. The manufacturer wrote
the flight manual and flight tested the a/c.

Oxmoron1
Remember the BOLD print!

"OXMORON1" wrote in message
...
Steven asked:
I would think the operator would have better information on the ditching
behavior than would the manufacturer.

How so? The manufacturer designed the darned thing. The flight manual
stated
the limitations for various conditions and emergencies. The manufacturer
wrote
the flight manual and flight tested the a/c.


Well, who ditched more Avengers, the Navy or Grumman/Eastern?

Steven asked:
Well, who ditched more Avengers, the Navy or Grumman/Eastern?

Of course the Navy did, but they used the information and design work of
Grumman.

Rick

"OXMORON1" wrote in message
...

Of course the Navy did, but they used the information and design work of
Grumman.


So what? Until aircraft are actually ditched any information provided by
the builder on ditching is just theory. If aircraft always behaved as
predicted there'd be no reason for testing at all.

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 22:09:03 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


"OXMORON1" wrote in message
...

Of course the Navy did, but they used the information and design work of
Grumman.


So what? Until aircraft are actually ditched any information provided by
the builder on ditching is just theory. If aircraft always behaved as
predicted there'd be no reason for testing at all.

Shoot, if it behaved "as predicted" there would be no reason to ditch it :-)))

Al Minyard

In article ,
(OXMORON1) writes:
Steven asked:
Well, who ditched more Avengers, the Navy or Grumman/Eastern?

Of course the Navy did, but they used the information and design work of
Grumman.

Actually, there wasn't a whole lot of information and design work wrt
ditching airplanes until well after the war. The first really
systematic effort that I've been able to turn up is NACA Tech Note
3946, "Ditching Investigations of Dynamic Models and Effects of Design
Parameters on Ditching Characteristics". This used dynamically
equivalent models (gliders, really) that had been built to emulate not
only the aerodynamics, but the stuctural characteristics of the
subject aircraft. Weak areas, such as B-24 bomb bay doors, were
simulated using breakaway materials. Thae aircraft modelled were a
large cross section of 1940s and 1950s aircraft, ranging from the A-20
through the heavies from the B-17 through the B-36 (Even including teh
YB-49!), the whole range of Air Force Mediums, and the Navy's entire
inventory of single-engine carrier aircraft. (There are about 50
different airplanes listed.)

In the case of the TBF/TBM, ditching characteristics were not good.
If everythig stayed together, it was tolerable, but escape for the
Radio-Gunner in the aft tunnel was problematic at best, and the Turret
Gunner had to worm his way out through the side of the turret.
However, the Avenger had a weak spot - If the bomb bay doors were
open, or if, as was very likely, they collapsed during ditching, the
airplane would pitch down and dive violently under the surface. In
that case, the only luck you'd have would best be described as "bad".

Ditching characteristecs were very much an afterthought, unless you
were designing a Flying Boat.

Note to Art: The Martin B-26 also wasn't a good candidate for
ditching, either.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 10/23/03 9:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: rhaanb-9f1.ln@Minesha

Note to Art: The Martin B-26 also wasn't a good candidate for
ditching, either.

No kiddiing. We had 30 seconds before the B-26 dove for the the bottom. Those
of us who served in B-26's were well aware of that as proven in ditching tanks.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 10/23/03 9:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: rhaanb-9f1.ln@Minesha

Note to Art: The Martin B-26 also wasn't a good candidate for
ditching, either.

No kiddiing. We had 30 seconds before the B-26 dove for the the bottom. Those
of us who served in B-26's were well aware of that as proven in ditching tanks.

Arthur Kramer

Proven?!?. I doubt that, 'Estimated' maybe...certainly not
proven.

Art, I don't think that you'd be smart to bet on those 30
seconds. Mind you, you may have 30 hours depending on how the a/c
hit the water among lots of other things.

I've done hundreds of ditching drills where we needed to get an
18 man crew out on the hangar floor carrying their proper items.
We could usually do it but remember that you're doing the testing
in a nice warm lighted hangar, not the middle of the North
Atlantic in a winter gale after the trauma of a night ditching...
--

-Gord.

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 10/24/03 7:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 10/23/03 9:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: rhaanb-9f1.ln@Minesha

Note to Art: The Martin B-26 also wasn't a good candidate for
ditching, either.

No kiddiing. We had 30 seconds before the B-26 dove for the the bottom.
Those
of us who served in B-26's were well aware of that as proven in ditching
tanks.

Arthur Kramer

Proven?!?. I doubt that, 'Estimated' maybe...certainly not
proven.

Art, I don't think that you'd be smart to bet on those 30
seconds. Mind you, you may have 30 hours depending on how the a/c
hit the water among lots of other things.

I've done hundreds of ditching drills where we needed to get an
18 man crew out on the hangar floor carrying their proper items.
We could usually do it but remember that you're doing the testing
in a nice warm lighted hangar, not the middle of the North
Atlantic in a winter gale after the trauma of a night ditching...
--

-Gord.


I think Art may be talking about "one a day in Tampa Bay" not hanger drills.

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Gord Beaman" )
Date: 10/24/03 7:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Peter Stickney)
Date: 10/23/03 9:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: rhaanb-9f1.ln@Minesha

Note to Art: The Martin B-26 also wasn't a good candidate for
ditching, either.

No kiddiing. We had 30 seconds before the B-26 dove for the the bottom.
Those
of us who served in B-26's were well aware of that as proven in ditching
tanks.

Arthur Kramer

Proven?!?. I doubt that, 'Estimated' maybe...certainly not
proven.

Art, I don't think that you'd be smart to bet on those 30
seconds. Mind you, you may have 30 hours depending on how the a/c
hit the water among lots of other things.

I've done hundreds of ditching drills where we needed to get an
18 man crew out on the hangar floor carrying their proper items.
We could usually do it but remember that you're doing the testing
in a nice warm lighted hangar, not the middle of the North
Atlantic in a winter gale after the trauma of a night ditching...
--

-Gord.
..

I am not talking about drills in a hanger. I am yalking about one a day in
Tampa Bay. And lives lost and lessons learned the hard way.
..
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer