Fly Boy ?????

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 2:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 20031023175241.07974.00000029

Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

Best line of the thread.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr wrote:

Once you give someone the benefit of the doubt, you admit that there is doubt.
Always lingering, disturbing unsettling doubt.

Arthur Kramer



Damn, despite your obvious biases I have always felt I should give you
the benefit of the doubt since, as you say, you have "been there, done
that."

Now you have planted the seed of suspicion. Things will never be the
same!

Dave

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Mike Marron
Date: 10/23/03 6:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Art Kramer wrote:
Mike Marron wroteL
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

I would think the operator would have better information on the ditching
behavior than would the manufacturer.

Glad to see you finally coming around Steven. There's no substitute
for experience but when I asked you how many hours you have in
a certain type your non sequitur response was "irrelevant."

We had 30 seconds to escape from a B-26 in training in Lake Charles.And some
of
us didn't make it all the time. Navy guysawho have been through ditching
drill
will understand. .The B-26 barely paused at the surface before flooding and
diving under.

I haven't been thru the Navy's ditching drills but I have ditched an
A/C before (for real) and I certainly understand. You're sitting there
fat, dumb and happy and the next thing ya know you're hanging
from the straps upside down. Here's a ditching story from one of
my UK bud's who went thru a similiar experience:

***

Well I had personal experience and I can tell you that when the trike
hits the water it is all over in a second and the wing wrapped around
the trike which tipped sideways and sank immediately. I would not
suggest undoing your seat belt if you intend to stay with the craft.

I panicked for a second underwater thinking I was trapped, I forgot
about my seat belt, then common sense took over and I relaxed, undid
it and felt my way out. In a rushing river or sea things will be even
worse. My river was slow moving and shallow enough to see a wing tip
sticking above the surface. One wing stayed in tact, the other
wrapped around the trike.

You won't be able to stall like a hang glider and just drop down to
the water unless you do a BIG stall which will take you up quite high.
The resulting drop will not be good. When they fly the English
channel, people fill their wings with air matresses to help keep the
wing afloat if they ditch.

I would not want to go through it again and I think I may take my
chances and jump next time before hitting the water, especially in
rough water or fast flowing rivers.

***

Bush's plane was a "floater" and often floated for hours. He should
have ditched.

Even if you're right, I'm afraid that ain't the point, Art. Have you
read Ed Rasimus' astute comments (and my followup) in this
thread? In case you missed it, here they are once again:

Ed said:

***

I've followed all this thread, biting my tongue in the process. What
amazes me is that the resident "if you ain't been, you ain't ****..."
curmudgeon is so eager to condemn someone who has been there.

Anyone who has been, knows that you all sign on--pilots, navs,
bomb-aimers, gunners, EWO's et. al. You go to war. You go with the
folks you are assigned to go with.

War happens in a heartbeat. It sometime works for you and sometime
against. Some folks die and some folks live. The live ones aren't
better or worse than the dead ones, simply luckier.

To second guess circumstances sixty years later, particularly based on
an author's creative account is to demean the whole warrior ethic.

I'm sorry. I survived. I didn't spend years in a POW camp. I wasn't
wounded in action. I didn't lose any crew members. I didn't lose any
aircraft. I saw a lot of losses.

The fact that is incontrovertible is that Bush (41) was a combat
pilot. He was younger than most. He was blooded. He lost an aircraft
in honorable combat. He survived. What is wrong with that?

Additionally, as I've previously noted in this forum, Bush (43) was a
graduate of UPT, a qualifier in a Century Series aircraft, and a
commissioned officer. Those are fine qualifications in my book.

***


My followup:

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps Teddy Roosevelt
summed it up best:


"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done
better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the
arena......"


There were 11 million of us in that arena. When a pilot survives and loses
his crew there will always be questions. Those who flew aircrew, backseaters,
gunners etc seem to understand that and raise questions of their own. But
those who flew alone without aircrew (fighter pilots) or those who never flew
at all may never understand the concerns of aircrew.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

rom: "Tarver Engineering"


Lune.

Lune (l€n) n.a crescent-shaped figure bounded by two arcs of circles,
either on a plane or a spherical surface. [1695–1705; L l�na moon]

Loon1 (l€n) n.any of several large, ducklike diving birds of the order
Gaviiformes, nesting along fresh water in colder regions of the Northern
Hemisphere. [1625–35; appar. alter. of dial. loom ON lŽm]

Loon2 (l€n) n.a crazy or simple-minded person. [1400–50; late ME lowen,
perh. ON l�inn worn, tired]


Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 10/23/03 6:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/23/03 2:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id: 20031023175241.07974.00000029

Knowing that Bishop, a former NCAA swimming ace, had died in an H-46 in
the best shape of his life didn't tarnish my unshakeable faith that if I
survived impact, I would make it out of the water alive. (Or be found in
the
wreck with my hands around the pilot's neck.)

Best line of the thread.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



Funny but probably true.

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
news

But same principle relating to the importance of experience.


Nope.



Like I said Stevie, you're living in the land of Oz and are more full
of **** than a brontasaurus with no ass if you think that you, with
your basic VFR-only private pilot's license (?) and paltry amount of
experience is in the same ball park with ANY CFII or A&P mechanic
(not just me). Reality check!


You have demonstrated a poor knowledge of the FARs, the inability to think
logically, a huge ego, and a lack of maturity. You know nothing of my
knowledge and experience level.

"ArtKramr" wrote in message
...

We had 30 seconds to escape from a B-26 in training in Lake Charles.And
some of
us didn't make it all the time. Navy guysawho have been through ditching
drill
will understand. .The B-26 barely paused at the surface before flooding
and
diving under. Bush's plane was a "floater" and often floated for hours.
He
should have ditched. Sorry to insert personal ditching experience in this
thread.


You know nothing about Bush's plane's floating ability and unless you've
been in a real ditching you have no personal ditching experience.

nt (Gordon) wrote:


Without knowing sea state, winds and surf conditions at the time, or taking
into account the controlability issues, its very difficult to second guess
Bush's choice of silk or ditch. I would rather ditch than bale,

--cut--

I agree...we flew a lot of hours over the Atlantic, both North
and South and not a few over the Pacific as well, most of it
below 1000 feet and I can tell you that it's one uninviting
sight, especially in winter. One doesn't want to imagine trying
to survive down there in a 40-50 knot gale with a continuous
expanse of whitecaps from horizon to horizon in all directions.

I'm sure that you can easily agree Gordon. shudder

One of our crews had that possibility 'up close and personal'.

They had been planting a field of sonobuoys (about mid Atlantic)
when one stuck in it's chute halfway out. It went just far enough
to uncover the vanes which, being dragged along at ~170 Knots
spun at a great rate till the bolt holding the hub on wore off
and the vanes spun up into the a/c belly, slashed through the
skin and cut off a torque tube used to control the elevators.

This caused no end of concern to the cockpit crew who all had
suggestions ranging from "Putter in the water" to "head West"
(home) to "head for Lajes" (closest land) and several other
wildassed suggestions.

Anyway, it was decided to head (gently) for Lajes (good l o n g
runway, plus good wx etc). The crew experimented with flaps and
power to replace the function of the elevators (cautiously).

Anyway they had a nearly uneventful landing at the Azores.
(albeit with quite tired sphincters)

It was one of my squadron's aircraft and crews so luckily I
wasn't aboard.

My point is that only the crew involved has enough facts to make
the decision required about the best course to take. That's why
the buck stops at the Crew Captain's seat. It certainly doesn't
preclude the rest of the crew making suggestions nor him using
(or not) any/all of them (CRM) but the FINAL decision must be his
alone.

I've done considerable flying on 'multi-man' flight crews and
I've always thought this, I've also applauded the CRM aspect when
it started being encouraged/required just a few years ago.
--

-Gord.

Art Kramer wrote:
Mike Marron wrote:

Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. Perhaps Teddy Roosevelt
summed it up best:

"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the
strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done
better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the
arena......"

There were 11 million of us in that arena.

No, there were only *three* in that arena -- the pilot who survived,
and the turrent gunner and the belly gunner/radioman whom are
both deceased and have been for many decades now. If you're
having a tough time believing what the sole survivor says, I guess
you're just **** outta' luck!

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

You have demonstrated a poor knowledge of the FARs, the inability
to think logically, a huge ego, and a lack of maturity.

Damn I'm good!

You know nothing of my knowledge and experience level.

True. So feel free to enlighten me Stevie boy. All I've heard so far
is that you've been known to putter around in a 65-hp Aeronca Champ
from time to time. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with
that but so far all I've learned from reading your drivel is....well,
uhh, ahh, er, umm???