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Fly Boy ?????



 
 
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  #3  
Old October 24th 03, 03:17 PM
George Z. Bush
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"Autocollimator" wrote in message
...

(Snip)

As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew combat in
WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those that never flew as
aircrew in WW II. As far as wallowing in the mud goes, look to yourself.

Just for the record, I flew Troop Carrier gooney birds in Italy during WWII,
Bad guys shot at us, and we didn't have anything but our .45s to shoot back
with, or bombs to drop on them, but I still think it was considered combat.

Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in recognition of
the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise my
question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I asked what
the manufacturer had to say on the subject.

In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who knew
how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots. Before
they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance testing, they
sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the operator
needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one piece.
Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere, its crew
should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in that
manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and
recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water.

After all of the back and forth about how smart the surviving pilots of
successful ditchings must have been, it boggles my mind that it hasn't occurred
to anyone that the reason for their survival may have been more a matter of what
they got out of their flight manuals than the luck of the draw and their
superior flying skills (superior to the manufacturer's test pilots, of course).

And since we were talking about Grumman's TBM, I don't recall that anyone
commented on what the manufacturer's flight manual said about ditching it. Now,
I really didn't need to hear about how smart the surviving pilots of ditched
TBMs were; I can easily assume that there were plenty of equally smart but far
unluckier pilots who didn't survive the experience. That there would be a
number of variables in every ditching situation is a given, including pilot
health, piloting skill levels, aircraft condition, weather conditions, ocean
surface conditions, etc. The only constant is the question of what was designed
into the aircraft, which would be the same regardless of the variables. For
that, you have to go to the manufacturer and his flight manual.

Shall we try again? Or am I all wet (no pun intended)?

George Z.


  #4  
Old October 24th 03, 07:59 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in

recognition of
the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise

my
question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I

asked what
the manufacturer had to say on the subject.

In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who

knew
how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots.

Before
they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance

testing, they
sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the

operator
needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one

piece.
Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere,

its crew
should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in

that
manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and
recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water.


Unless the manufacturer actually ditched the aircraft whatever was written
in the manual was theory.


  #6  
Old October 24th 03, 08:34 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Autocollimator" wrote in message
...

Of course once the crew ditched the aircraft threory became practice

pretty
friggin fast. Or hadn't that occured to you?


That's a possibility, not a surety. It's also possible the manufacturer's
theory was proven wrong. Why didn't that possibility occur to you?


  #8  
Old October 24th 03, 10:03 PM
George Z. Bush
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in

recognition of
the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise

my
question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I

asked what
the manufacturer had to say on the subject.

In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who

knew
how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots.

Before
they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance

testing, they
sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the

operator
needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one

piece.
Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere,

its crew
should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in

that
manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and
recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water.


Unless the manufacturer actually ditched the aircraft whatever was written
in the manual was theory.


Actually, some manufacturers (and maybe all, for all I know), did do exactly
that with scaled models of their new aircraft. In any case, I'd rather have
some applied theory from an aeronautical engineer who designed the aircraft than
guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how it would react better than the
bird's designers.

Since you seem committed to pooh-pooh the manufacturer's knowledge no matter
what, what does the pilot who has the misfortune of having to ditch the first of
that model aircraft rely on? Who tells him the best approach speed for that
bird, or the best escape routes out of the aircraft after impact, or the things
that he needs to do to give himself the best odds possible of surviving the
experience. If not the manufacturer, who? Somebody else who hasn't gone
through the drill?

George Z.




  #9  
Old October 24th 03, 10:33 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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Default


"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

Actually, some manufacturers (and maybe all, for all I know), did do
exactly that with scaled models of their new aircraft.


That's fine, but everything does not necessarily carry over to the actual
aircraft.



In any case, I'd rather have some applied theory from an aeronautical

engineer who
designed the aircraft than guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how

it
would react better than the bird's designers.


We're not talking about guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how it
would react better than the bird's designers, we're talking about the
collective experience of many actual ditchings. If you'd take applied
theory from an aeronautical engineer who designed the aircraft over the
collective experience of many actual ditchings, then you're an idiot.



Since you seem committed to pooh-pooh the manufacturer's knowledge no
matter what, what does the pilot who has the misfortune of having to ditch

the
first of that model aircraft rely on?


If I seem that way to you then you've read things into my messages that are
not there.


  #10  
Old October 24th 03, 10:41 PM
av8r
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Default

Hi George

Did you know any of the gang with the 54th ARSq. at Goose Air Base circa
1964?

Cheers...Chris

 




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