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Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Mike Marron Date: 10/23/03 10:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: (ArtKramr) wrote: Mike Marron wrote: terback after all these years is to demean the whole warrior ethic. The fact that you have chosen to conveniently ignore his pointed comments aimed squarely at YOU is duly noted, BTW. Anyone is free to note whatever they like.And I am free to reject their position as they are free to reject mine. Very well, then. It's unfortunate indeed that instead of wisely joining Ed and the rest of us whom have seized the high road, you've chosen to wallow around down in the mud. As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew combat in WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those that never flew as aircrew in WW II. As far as wallowing in the mud goes, look to yourself. |
#3
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![]() "Autocollimator" wrote in message ... (Snip) As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew combat in WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those that never flew as aircrew in WW II. As far as wallowing in the mud goes, look to yourself. Just for the record, I flew Troop Carrier gooney birds in Italy during WWII, Bad guys shot at us, and we didn't have anything but our .45s to shoot back with, or bombs to drop on them, but I still think it was considered combat. Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in recognition of the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise my question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I asked what the manufacturer had to say on the subject. In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who knew how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots. Before they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance testing, they sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the operator needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one piece. Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere, its crew should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in that manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water. After all of the back and forth about how smart the surviving pilots of successful ditchings must have been, it boggles my mind that it hasn't occurred to anyone that the reason for their survival may have been more a matter of what they got out of their flight manuals than the luck of the draw and their superior flying skills (superior to the manufacturer's test pilots, of course). And since we were talking about Grumman's TBM, I don't recall that anyone commented on what the manufacturer's flight manual said about ditching it. Now, I really didn't need to hear about how smart the surviving pilots of ditched TBMs were; I can easily assume that there were plenty of equally smart but far unluckier pilots who didn't survive the experience. That there would be a number of variables in every ditching situation is a given, including pilot health, piloting skill levels, aircraft condition, weather conditions, ocean surface conditions, etc. The only constant is the question of what was designed into the aircraft, which would be the same regardless of the variables. For that, you have to go to the manufacturer and his flight manual. Shall we try again? Or am I all wet (no pun intended)? George Z. |
#4
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![]() "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in recognition of the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise my question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I asked what the manufacturer had to say on the subject. In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who knew how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots. Before they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance testing, they sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the operator needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one piece. Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere, its crew should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in that manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water. Unless the manufacturer actually ditched the aircraft whatever was written in the manual was theory. |
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Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Steven P. McNicoll" Date: 10/24/03 11:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: t "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in recognition of the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise my question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I asked what the manufacturer had to say on the subject. In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who knew how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots. Before they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance testing, they sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the operator needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one piece. Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere, its crew should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in that manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water. Unless the manufacturer actually ditched the aircraft whatever was written in the manual was theory. Of course once the crew ditched the aircraft threory became practice pretty friggin fast. Or hadn't that occured to you? .. |
#6
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![]() "Autocollimator" wrote in message ... Of course once the crew ditched the aircraft threory became practice pretty friggin fast. Or hadn't that occured to you? That's a possibility, not a surety. It's also possible the manufacturer's theory was proven wrong. Why didn't that possibility occur to you? |
#7
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Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: "Steven P. McNicoll" Date: 10/24/03 12:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: t "Autocollimator" wrote in message ... Of course once the crew ditched the aircraft threory became practice pretty friggin fast. Or hadn't that occured to you? That's a possibility, not a surety. It's also possible the manufacturer's theory was proven wrong. Why didn't that possibility occur to you? No a surety, not just a possibility. Have you ever gotten off the ground in a miliatry aircraft? I think not. |
#8
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![]() "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message k.net... "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... Anyway, since I started this thread with an innocent question, in recognition of the **** storm it generated, I'm going to claim author's rights to revise my question. AIR, we were talking about ditching characteristics, and I asked what the manufacturer had to say on the subject. In those days, before an aircraft hit the inventory, the only people who knew how it was going to behave were the manufacturer and his test pilots. Before they turned the aircraft over to the military for their acceptance testing, they sat down and wrote a flight manual, which contained everything the operator needed to know about how to make the bird go up and come back down in one piece. Before the first of that model actually ditched in the water somewhere, its crew should have familiarized themselves with every bit of the information in that manual, including how it was going to behave when it hit the water and recommendations on how best to make initial contact with the water. Unless the manufacturer actually ditched the aircraft whatever was written in the manual was theory. Actually, some manufacturers (and maybe all, for all I know), did do exactly that with scaled models of their new aircraft. In any case, I'd rather have some applied theory from an aeronautical engineer who designed the aircraft than guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how it would react better than the bird's designers. Since you seem committed to pooh-pooh the manufacturer's knowledge no matter what, what does the pilot who has the misfortune of having to ditch the first of that model aircraft rely on? Who tells him the best approach speed for that bird, or the best escape routes out of the aircraft after impact, or the things that he needs to do to give himself the best odds possible of surviving the experience. If not the manufacturer, who? Somebody else who hasn't gone through the drill? George Z. |
#9
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![]() "George Z. Bush" wrote in message ... Actually, some manufacturers (and maybe all, for all I know), did do exactly that with scaled models of their new aircraft. That's fine, but everything does not necessarily carry over to the actual aircraft. In any case, I'd rather have some applied theory from an aeronautical engineer who designed the aircraft than guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how it would react better than the bird's designers. We're not talking about guesswork from somebody who thought he knew how it would react better than the bird's designers, we're talking about the collective experience of many actual ditchings. If you'd take applied theory from an aeronautical engineer who designed the aircraft over the collective experience of many actual ditchings, then you're an idiot. Since you seem committed to pooh-pooh the manufacturer's knowledge no matter what, what does the pilot who has the misfortune of having to ditch the first of that model aircraft rely on? If I seem that way to you then you've read things into my messages that are not there. |
#10
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Hi George
Did you know any of the gang with the 54th ARSq. at Goose Air Base circa 1964? Cheers...Chris |
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