soaring into the future

Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 7:01 am, Steve Davis
wrote:
At 21:49 26 December 2007, Brad wrote:
Soaring in America needs
high altitude high capacity winch launch locations,

We need enough glider pilots concentrated in specific geographic areas
to justify a high capacity winch launch operations, sort of a chicken
and egg problem.

I've always wondered why no-one in the US has imported a Skylaunch kit
sans engine and fitted it with a locally-sourced engine and
transmission. That would give you a powerful, controllable winch with
a reasonable outlay.

I'm trying to pull together a syndicate to do precisely that. The
economics make it difficult to justify for existing clubs and commercial
operations, which were structured and located based on the (past)
availability of low cost aero tows. Importing a Skylaunch kit and
completing it wth locally sourced engine, transmission, etc., still
costs around US $80K, or roughly 2.5 low time Pawnees (or 1 Pawnee, an
engine, and a good bit of avgas). I suspect you can imagine the way the
discussion goes at most clubs here...

two seat trainers
which are economical to buy and operate

The PW6U and forthcoming Perkow spring to mind. The latter looks
particularly promising with 40:1 XC performance. As both are Polish
they don't come with the Germany premium.

With the exchange rate as it is (and it isn't going to get better any
time soon), a properly equipped PW6 with trailer costs something over US
$90K, the Perkow will cost even more. Once again, those prices are well
beyond what most clubs and commercial operations can readily afford or
justify.

and a single
seat glider with
launch and handling capabilities similar to the trainer
so a student
doesn't need to re-learn to fly so he/she can fly it.

Astir; also the Junior too which is still made and designed for
precisely that role, that it does very well. For a cheap "hot" (well,
OK, mildly warm) ship get a Cirrus.

Many US clubs now have ships like that. The problem now is that the
high prices for new gliders are having a ripple effect, which means
demand now outstrips supply for good mid-range ($25K to $35K) single
seat gliders. There are a lot of gliders around that should have been
refinished 10 years ago (and now can't be economically), but not as many
good low cost gliders to build a club around.

I think a lot of the solutions now exist, it just needs some motivated
people to make it happen and then tell the world (or at least the rest
of the US) of their success.

I wish it was as easy as you think...

Marc

On Dec 27, 8:18*pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:

big snip

I wish it was as easy as you think...

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be looking at the same
prices we are. A PW6U is £45,000 over here; a factory built Skylaunch
is ~£60,000. The former has seen a couple of sales and the latter are
being snapped up all over the place. How can we can afford to buy kit
like this and you guys can't? Most of the clubs I know have bought
this equipment cash.

A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?


Dan

Dan G wrote:
On Dec 27, 8:18 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:

big snip

I wish it was as easy as you think...

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be looking at the same
prices we are. A PW6U is £45,000 over here; a factory built Skylaunch
is ~£60,000. The former has seen a couple of sales and the latter are
being snapped up all over the place. How can we can afford to buy kit
like this and you guys can't? Most of the clubs I know have bought
this equipment cash.

A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?

Our fees are similar ($600/year, $30/2000' tow, $20/flight), we have
fewer members (around 60, I believe), but the economics are quite
different. We operate from a public airport, and have to rent a hangar
for the tow plane, along with space for glider tie downs and a club
house. I don't know the exact figure, but I suspect airport rent alone
is as much as $1500/month. We have enough money in the bank to stave
off disaster if the tow plane has a major maintenance issue, but that's
about it. We recently bought a newer glider (Grob Twin III), which
required substantial loans from members to cover it until we manage to
sell off one of our older Twin IIs. Some members would like to get a
DG-1000 or similar, but the club simply can't afford it at the moment.

The tow plane and airport fees eat the majority of the fees collected.
A winch would be a great revenue generator and cut or even eliminate the
need for the tow plane. However, it would require a big pile of money
(for us) up front, intensive training of instructors and members, cause
grumbling from the tow pilot members and those who like to tow miles in
search of better conditions, and we'd be likely be forced to move to a
location farther out from the population centers, resulting in a loss of
membership. While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc

While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

"Brad" wrote in message
...
While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

No one says winches will totally replace aero tows which will always have a
place in the situation you describe. There are places where any soaring is
miles away from the airfield. Only an aero tow will get you there.

But your situation won't save the sport, nor is it really typical. Most
sites have local soaring - having been located there because of that. It is
really not difficult to soar away from a winch launch. When attempting to
soar, my lifetime average is better than 80%. If you don't happen to
connect with lift, another launch is cheap and quick.

It can be difficult to implement winch launch at sites selected for aero tow
and that is a challenge. But it's a challenge we have to meet and win.
Our sport may well depend on it.

Aero tow costs are increasing dramatically. You have to ask if those "long
tow" site will be there much longer.

Bill Daniels

Bill,

You're absolutley right.
The land situation for locating a really "practical" winch is the key
issue.
In fact, there is a guy in our club that is on a fact-finding mission
on winch towing in the USA. I suspect he has gotten a lot of really
good info recently. My angle on this is: OK, I like the
winch................but it has to be practical to make it truly
successful. I.E. locate it where there is a likelyhood of lift and get
you there high enough to safely use it.

Got an interesting place close to where I live. Might make an
interesting study to see just what kind of hoops one must jump
through........not only with the club members, but also in dealing
with the local government and "landowners" to develop a chunk of arid
and dry ridgetop land into a local gliderjockey hangout. There's no
doubt about it........it would create attention!

Brad


On Dec 27, 6:52*pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Brad" wrote in message

...





While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

No one says winches will totally replace aero tows which will always have a
place in the situation you describe. *There are places where any soaring is
miles away from the airfield. *Only an aero tow will get you there.

But your situation won't save the sport, nor is it really typical. *Most
sites have local soaring - having been located there because of that. *It is
really not difficult to soar away from a winch launch. *When attempting to
soar, my lifetime average is better than 80%. *If you don't happen to
connect with lift, another launch is cheap and quick.

It can be difficult to implement winch launch at sites selected for aero tow
and that is a challenge. * But it's a challenge we have to meet and win.
Our sport may well depend on it.

Aero tow costs are increasing dramatically. *You have to ask if those "long
tow" site will be there much longer.

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Dec 27, 9:07 pm, Brad wrote:
Bill,

You're absolutley right.
The land situation for locating a really "practical" winch is the key
issue.
In fact, there is a guy in our club that is on a fact-finding mission
on winch towing in the USA. I suspect he has gotten a lot of really
good info recently. My angle on this is: OK, I like the
winch................but it has to be practical to make it truly
successful. I.E. locate it where there is a likelyhood of lift and get
you there high enough to safely use it.

Got an interesting place close to where I live. Might make an
interesting study to see just what kind of hoops one must jump
through........not only with the club members, but also in dealing
with the local government and "landowners" to develop a chunk of arid
and dry ridgetop land into a local gliderjockey hangout. There's no
doubt about it........it would create attention!

Brad

On Dec 27, 6:52 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:

"Brad" wrote in message

...

While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

Marc-

Some of the members in our club are looking at winch launching. I
suspect that they will come to the same conclusions. "Cheap" tows that
a winch offer is really a matter of perspective.

We did some double towing a few years ago and got quite good at it.
Typical double tows were for 15+ mile treks to the mountains to
connect with the lift. Our double tow fee structure made it
"economical" to do and we were rewarded with long flights and awesome
forays into the Cascade Mountains.

The winch.................well, it ain't gonna do it.

Brad

No one says winches will totally replace aero tows which will always have a
place in the situation you describe. There are places where any soaring is
miles away from the airfield. Only an aero tow will get you there.

But your situation won't save the sport, nor is it really typical. Most
sites have local soaring - having been located there because of that. It is
really not difficult to soar away from a winch launch. When attempting to
soar, my lifetime average is better than 80%. If you don't happen to
connect with lift, another launch is cheap and quick.

It can be difficult to implement winch launch at sites selected for aero tow
and that is a challenge. But it's a challenge we have to meet and win.
Our sport may well depend on it.

Aero tow costs are increasing dramatically. You have to ask if those "long
tow" site will be there much longer.

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Negotiate a landing spot at the bottom of the ridge also if you locate
at the top. Wasn't there an alternate ridge top site at Wenatchee
years ago? Is it still accessible?

Ridge sites will require the least space, be they at the top or bottom
of the ridge. A ridge doesn't have to be high, just oriented to the
prevailing winds. I was in Hood River, Oregon, recently. The folks
at NW Skysports take the ridge to the wave. Interesting site.

Frank Whiteley

On Dec 28, 12:37*am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Dan G wrote:
A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?

Our fees are similar ($600/year, $30/2000' tow, $20/flight), we have
fewer members (around 60, I believe), but the economics are quite
different. *We operate from a public airport, and have to rent a hangar
for the tow plane, along with space for glider tie downs and a club
house. *I don't know the exact figure, but I suspect airport rent alone
is as much as $1500/month.

Our site rent is three times yours, plus we pay staff costs (one full
time employee and a couple of part-timers both instructors and in the
office) and of course have costs on tow planes (two) as well. I think
there's two big differences, 1) you charge half the price per aerotow
we do (though our avgas is around $8 a gallon) and if $20/flight is
$20 for one hour, again we charge about double, and 2) we winch, doing
about 5,000 launches a year, with big profit on each one.

There might also be a third - we heavily promote "trial flights",
which cost about $150 and obviously have high margins. We aim for
something like 150 trial flights a year. Is there a US equivalent?

The tow plane and airport fees eat the majority of the fees collected.
A winch would be a great revenue generator and cut or even eliminate the
need for the tow plane. *However, it would require a big pile of money
(for us) up front, intensive training of instructors and members, cause
grumbling from the tow pilot members and those who like to tow miles in
search of better conditions, and we'd be likely be forced to move to a
location farther out from the population centers, resulting in a loss of
membership. *While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

There's several ways of looking at this. Does you club do much ab
intio training or is it mainly established pilots? We have lots of
trainees at any one time (few become long-term members, there's a high
turnover), and we train them entirely on the winch. To go aerotow solo
they take a tow or two after solo.

You can also soar off the winch in the right conditions, but I find it
becomes hard once cloud base get to around 5,000' AGL. In Britain such
days are exceptional so I have a winch launch/soar rate of 93% :-).
I'm guessing your cloud bases are much higher.

Not sure how you'd get the pilot experience and competence for winch
launching though. Judging by the Winch Fest video, there's still a lot
of ground to cover to get to BGA safety standards, which have almost
eliminated winch launching accidents.


Dan

Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)


Shawn