soaring into the future

On Dec 28, 10:24 am, Shawn wrote:
toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)

Shawn

If/when cellulosic biofuel production becomes main stream, it may
become somewhat more expensive to complete with switch grass for
suitable land. Widespread cultivation of switch grass might also
impact available land out areas in areas where corn is not already
grown as it's irrigation requirements are substantially less. The
upside is that it's energy return is several times that of corn
ethanol production. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switchgrass
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/mis...s-profile.html

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

"toad" wrote in message
...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch and the response was
"bring it on". It seems almost universal that glider pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared. (Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.) That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which, to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring 100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good, particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

Another selling proposition for existing airports is the reduction in noise
when using winches. If you couple that with starting an after school
aviation program at the local High School, you've got a good political base,
an eager workforce, and you can expand your equipment utilization from
primarily weekends to every day.

Mike Schumann

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

"toad" wrote in message
...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch and the response
was "bring it on". It seems almost universal that glider pilots assume
winch operations would be turned down so they don't actually ask. Ask in
a reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared. (Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.) That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which, to a degree, depends
on public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring 100's of operations
per day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good, particularly if
those operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Dec 28, 9:37 am, toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Finger Lakes bought the old PGC winch and is using it at Dansville, a
mixed use airport, since 2007. The Soaring Sooners are winching,
since 2007, from a rather under utilized public airport with a nice
new hangar full of gliders mostly. Greater Houston Soaring
Association built a gliderport in recent years and winches regularly.
They did great PR with the local government and locals before moving
ahead to defuse any objections as they also self-launch and have
multiple tow planes.

You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

There are geographic limitations to flat land availability in many
areas, so it can be challenging. Suitable ridge and hill top sites
generally require less land than flat land sites for winching.

Somehow the Europeans have been able do this with generally higher
population densities and intense governmental restrictions. I know
they don't set up new sites often, but they have done so since I've
been soaring.

Frank Whiteley

Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

Frank Whiteley wrote:

You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

I'd like to ask a favor of everyone: let's find a more accurate and less
prejudicial term than "geezer" for people that don't want change or
reflexively favor aerotow. It's gratuitous, and disparagement apparently
based on age isn't going to win any of the friends we'll need to improve
soaring. It may also blind people to the fact that a lot of us "geezers"
support smaller, simpler, lighter, and cheaper soaring.

Maybe "reflexive aerotow promoters", "anti-change group", or
"short-sighted club officers"?

Or even skip the label entirely. The above statement could have used
"some members" just as effectively as "geezer", especially since the
poster was just speculating.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Dec 28, 3:37*pm, toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. *I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. * So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation.

Has anyone in the states considered using Rotax-powered aircraft for
towing? The Rotax Falke has a tow limit of 650 kg (around 1,400 lbs I
think) and a surprisingly good climb rate with just 100 hp - though it
is a motor glider afterall (and you can use it for land out training
too, amortizing the costs). The beauty of Rotax-powered aircraft is
their running costs - around 1/4 of those of a Pawnee. That's a
seriously big increase in your profit margin per tow.

If you're at a hot n high airport there is a turbo variant of the
Rotax, but I don't think it's been fitted to the Falke. There is the
G109 which is a GRP motor glider with the turbo engine, but when the
high-boost period (five minutes) is used up the climb rate drops
dramatically.

Though by the sounds of later replies, beginning winch launching
sounds a lot more realistic in the US than some might think.


Dan

The problem with winch launching in the US is the inherent fear of change in
the average person. Most pilots in the US have never experienced a winch
launch, so they only look at the downsides. The potential launch cost
savings aren't significant enough to interest the guys who already own
private ships and have decent incomes. The same guys don't realize how much
fun winching can be, as they've never tried it.

In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching, you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching. In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated with a tow plane.

The other problem in the US, is that most glider operations take place at
public airports. The coexistence of winches with power traffic can lead to
real, as well as imaginary issues. With the cost of farmland going thru the
roof, thanks to ethanol and urban sprawl, the feasibility of buying or
leasing land for a winch only strip reasonably close to major metropolitan
areas, where the pilots live, is quite problematic.

To overcome this hurdle, it's going to take a very imaginative marketing
effort, the most important element of which has to be touring the country
giving winch demos to clubs, so people start looking at how much FUN winch
launches are, instead of focusing on the cost savings.

Mike Schumann

P.S. I'm firmly convinced that the most promising market for winch
launching is with commercial operators, who are heavily focused on selling
rides. Not only would their margins increase dramatically, but so would the
ride experience and the marketability of their product.

"Dan G" wrote in message
...
On Dec 27, 8:18 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:

big snip

I wish it was as easy as you think...

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be looking at the same
prices we are. A PW6U is £45,000 over here; a factory built Skylaunch
is ~£60,000. The former has seen a couple of sales and the latter are
being snapped up all over the place. How can we can afford to buy kit
like this and you guys can't? Most of the clubs I know have bought
this equipment cash.

A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?


Dan



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Dec 28, 10:39 pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
The problem with winch launching in the US is the inherent fear of change in
the average person. Most pilots in the US have never experienced a winch
launch, so they only look at the downsides. The potential launch cost
savings aren't significant enough to interest the guys who already own
private ships and have decent incomes. The same guys don't realize how much
fun winching can be, as they've never tried it.

In order to be a safe and successful with winch launching, you need to make
a 100% commitment. You can't run winches and tows in parallel, if people
are going to get and stay proficient in winch launching. In addition, the
only way winches are economically justifiable is if you totally eliminate
the overhead, operating, and maintenance costs associated with a tow plane..

The other problem in the US, is that most glider operations take place at
public airports. The coexistence of winches with power traffic can lead to
real, as well as imaginary issues. With the cost of farmland going thru the
roof, thanks to ethanol and urban sprawl, the feasibility of buying or
leasing land for a winch only strip reasonably close to major metropolitan
areas, where the pilots live, is quite problematic.

To overcome this hurdle, it's going to take a very imaginative marketing
effort, the most important element of which has to be touring the country
giving winch demos to clubs, so people start looking at how much FUN winch
launches are, instead of focusing on the cost savings.

Mike Schumann

P.S. I'm firmly convinced that the most promising market for winch
launching is with commercial operators, who are heavily focused on selling
rides. Not only would their margins increase dramatically, but so would the
ride experience and the marketability of their product.

"Dan G" wrote in message

...
On Dec 27, 8:18 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:

big snip

I wish it was as easy as you think...

What's interesting to me is that you seem to be looking at the same
prices we are. A PW6U is £45,000 over here; a factory built Skylaunch
is ~£60,000. The former has seen a couple of sales and the latter are
being snapped up all over the place. How can we can afford to buy kit
like this and you guys can't? Most of the clubs I know have bought
this equipment cash.

A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?

Dan

--
Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com

One big problem with winch launching in the US is finding somewhere to
get trained. I have been looking for a place to get the training and
have found no place close enough to get the training and 2 locations
which I could travel to and get a concentrated training. Anybody
want to add any operations to that list ?

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
One big problem with winch launching in the US is finding somewhere to
get trained. I have been looking for a place to get the training and
have found no place close enough to get the training and 2 locations
which I could travel to and get a concentrated training. Anybody
want to add any operations to that list ?

Where are you located?