soaring into the future

On Dec 28, 12:37*am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Dan G wrote:
A club which has bought a Skylaunch recently might have about 100
members paying £300 a year each and about £7 a winch launch, plus
around £25 an hour glider hire. An aerotow, btw, costs about £25 to
2,000'. What are US club membership numbers and costs like?

Our fees are similar ($600/year, $30/2000' tow, $20/flight), we have
fewer members (around 60, I believe), but the economics are quite
different. *We operate from a public airport, and have to rent a hangar
for the tow plane, along with space for glider tie downs and a club
house. *I don't know the exact figure, but I suspect airport rent alone
is as much as $1500/month.

Our site rent is three times yours, plus we pay staff costs (one full
time employee and a couple of part-timers both instructors and in the
office) and of course have costs on tow planes (two) as well. I think
there's two big differences, 1) you charge half the price per aerotow
we do (though our avgas is around $8 a gallon) and if $20/flight is
$20 for one hour, again we charge about double, and 2) we winch, doing
about 5,000 launches a year, with big profit on each one.

There might also be a third - we heavily promote "trial flights",
which cost about $150 and obviously have high margins. We aim for
something like 150 trial flights a year. Is there a US equivalent?

The tow plane and airport fees eat the majority of the fees collected.
A winch would be a great revenue generator and cut or even eliminate the
need for the tow plane. *However, it would require a big pile of money
(for us) up front, intensive training of instructors and members, cause
grumbling from the tow pilot members and those who like to tow miles in
search of better conditions, and we'd be likely be forced to move to a
location farther out from the population centers, resulting in a loss of
membership. *While a winch may be a "win-win-win-win" scenario, as a
practical matter it is difficult to implement at many sites in the US.

There's several ways of looking at this. Does you club do much ab
intio training or is it mainly established pilots? We have lots of
trainees at any one time (few become long-term members, there's a high
turnover), and we train them entirely on the winch. To go aerotow solo
they take a tow or two after solo.

You can also soar off the winch in the right conditions, but I find it
becomes hard once cloud base get to around 5,000' AGL. In Britain such
days are exceptional so I have a winch launch/soar rate of 93% :-).
I'm guessing your cloud bases are much higher.

Not sure how you'd get the pilot experience and competence for winch
launching though. Judging by the Winch Fest video, there's still a lot
of ground to cover to get to BGA safety standards, which have almost
eliminated winch launching accidents.


Dan

Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)


Shawn

On Dec 28, 10:24 am, Shawn wrote:
toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)

Shawn

If/when cellulosic biofuel production becomes main stream, it may
become somewhat more expensive to complete with switch grass for
suitable land. Widespread cultivation of switch grass might also
impact available land out areas in areas where corn is not already
grown as it's irrigation requirements are substantially less. The
upside is that it's energy return is several times that of corn
ethanol production. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switchgrass
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/mis...s-profile.html

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

"toad" wrote in message
...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch and the response was
"bring it on". It seems almost universal that glider pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared. (Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.) That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which, to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring 100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good, particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

Another selling proposition for existing airports is the reduction in noise
when using winches. If you couple that with starting an after school
aviation program at the local High School, you've got a good political base,
an eager workforce, and you can expand your equipment utilization from
primarily weekends to every day.

Mike Schumann

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

"toad" wrote in message
...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch and the response
was "bring it on". It seems almost universal that glider pilots assume
winch operations would be turned down so they don't actually ask. Ask in
a reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared. (Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.) That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which, to a degree, depends
on public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring 100's of operations
per day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good, particularly if
those operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Dec 28, 9:37 am, toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Finger Lakes bought the old PGC winch and is using it at Dansville, a
mixed use airport, since 2007. The Soaring Sooners are winching,
since 2007, from a rather under utilized public airport with a nice
new hangar full of gliders mostly. Greater Houston Soaring
Association built a gliderport in recent years and winches regularly.
They did great PR with the local government and locals before moving
ahead to defuse any objections as they also self-launch and have
multiple tow planes.

You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

There are geographic limitations to flat land availability in many
areas, so it can be challenging. Suitable ridge and hill top sites
generally require less land than flat land sites for winching.

Somehow the Europeans have been able do this with generally higher
population densities and intense governmental restrictions. I know
they don't set up new sites often, but they have done so since I've
been soaring.

Frank Whiteley

Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

On Dec 28, 12:15 pm, Brad wrote:
Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

A few months ago? It was less than a month. I drove through there
the Sunday after Thanksgiving then north on the Jordan Road by Deer
Mountain then Hwy 9 to enter Canada at Sumas. Glad we got out of
there before the big storm. I agree, that area has potential and a
population base.

Frank

Frank,

Yep, how time seems to fly.............Jordan Road eh...........you
were right along the foothills we use to stair step our way back to
the mountains when we tow out of Arlington. If that's the same Jordan
road just east of Arlington.

If you came over US-2 then just as you came thru Sultan you were
looking slightly SW to the ridge I am talking about.

Call me next time you are in the area!

Brad




On Dec 28, 12:57*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Dec 28, 12:15 pm, Brad wrote:





Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

A few months ago? *It was less than a month. *I drove through there
the Sunday after Thanksgiving then north on the Jordan Road by Deer
Mountain then Hwy 9 to enter Canada at Sumas. *Glad we got out of
there before the big storm. *I agree, that area has potential and a
population base.

Frank- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -