soaring into the future

Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)


Shawn

On Dec 28, 10:24 am, Shawn wrote:
toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Maybe soaring will see an upside to the real estate bubble pop. With
the glut of foreclosures, demand for land to build subdivisions is
probably right around zero. Then again with the value of corn, farmers
may start buying up subdivisions and "plowing them under". ;-)

Shawn

If/when cellulosic biofuel production becomes main stream, it may
become somewhat more expensive to complete with switch grass for
suitable land. Widespread cultivation of switch grass might also
impact available land out areas in areas where corn is not already
grown as it's irrigation requirements are substantially less. The
upside is that it's energy return is several times that of corn
ethanol production. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switchgrass
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/mis...s-profile.html

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley

"toad" wrote in message
...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch and the response was
"bring it on". It seems almost universal that glider pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared. (Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.) That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which, to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring 100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good, particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

Another selling proposition for existing airports is the reduction in noise
when using winches. If you couple that with starting an after school
aviation program at the local High School, you've got a good political base,
an eager workforce, and you can expand your equipment utilization from
primarily weekends to every day.

Mike Schumann

"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
...

"toad" wrote in message
...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch and the response
was "bring it on". It seems almost universal that glider pilots assume
winch operations would be turned down so they don't actually ask. Ask in
a reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared. (Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.) That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which, to a degree, depends
on public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring 100's of operations
per day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good, particularly if
those operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Dec 28, 9:37 am, toad wrote:
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Finger Lakes bought the old PGC winch and is using it at Dansville, a
mixed use airport, since 2007. The Soaring Sooners are winching,
since 2007, from a rather under utilized public airport with a nice
new hangar full of gliders mostly. Greater Houston Soaring
Association built a gliderport in recent years and winches regularly.
They did great PR with the local government and locals before moving
ahead to defuse any objections as they also self-launch and have
multiple tow planes.

You will get much less objection to establishing a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than you will from
neighbors.

There are geographic limitations to flat land availability in many
areas, so it can be challenging. Suitable ridge and hill top sites
generally require less land than flat land sites for winching.

Somehow the Europeans have been able do this with generally higher
population densities and intense governmental restrictions. I know
they don't set up new sites often, but they have done so since I've
been soaring.

Frank Whiteley

Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

On Dec 28, 12:15 pm, Brad wrote:
Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

A few months ago? It was less than a month. I drove through there
the Sunday after Thanksgiving then north on the Jordan Road by Deer
Mountain then Hwy 9 to enter Canada at Sumas. Glad we got out of
there before the big storm. I agree, that area has potential and a
population base.

Frank

Frank,

Yep, how time seems to fly.............Jordan Road eh...........you
were right along the foothills we use to stair step our way back to
the mountains when we tow out of Arlington. If that's the same Jordan
road just east of Arlington.

If you came over US-2 then just as you came thru Sultan you were
looking slightly SW to the ridge I am talking about.

Call me next time you are in the area!

Brad




On Dec 28, 12:57*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Dec 28, 12:15 pm, Brad wrote:





Frank,

I think the Wenatechee ridge site is still there, but am not aware if
it is still being used.

The area I am talking about is in the town of Monroe WA and the valley
land is all pasture and flood plain, so there will never be any
development there. Do you remember a few months agao all tha flood
coverage in WA state? well, the Skykomish valley and the Carnation
valley were covered quite a bit in the news......these are 2 prime
"valley floor" areas that are at the base of the long ridge I am
referring too. I suppose you could google earth up the area and see
the topo view of the place. I think it has great promise. There are
acres of flat valley land that might be attractive for a farmer to
lease out to a local soaring group.

Perfect place for a winch already, and if the land on top could be
made into some kind of flying park; for gliders, hang gliders and
paragliders, we could prepare a really nice facility. Years ago there
were 2 great places to hang glide in that area. I still hold a few
local records from those sites.

Another thing that I find attractive is using SLA aircraft with super
quiet and efficient engines towing up lightweight sailplanes. This
combination might assuage the local populations fears about noise.

I hope our club will investigate these options and locations.

Brad

A few months ago? *It was less than a month. *I drove through there
the Sunday after Thanksgiving then north on the Jordan Road by Deer
Mountain then Hwy 9 to enter Canada at Sumas. *Glad we got out of
there before the big storm. *I agree, that area has potential and a
population base.

Frank- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This thread sent me searching for quotes and I found three I liked - two
attributed to Charles Darwin and one by John Maxwell.

"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most
intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to
change."

And:

"To change is difficult. Not to change is fatal."

And from John maxwell:

"People underestimate their capacity for change. There is never a right time
to do a difficult thing. A leader's job is to help people have vision of
their potential."

Whether we like it or not, winch launch will be part of our future - we have
no real alternative. To paraphrase Darwin, the survivors will winch launch.

There may be improvements in aero tow and motorgliders will continue to be
popular but winch launch has by far the greatest potential to impact the
economics of gliding.

Adopting winch launch is NOT easy. Almost everything we know about aero tow
either doesn't apply or requires significant change. Even things we think
we know about winch launch is likely to be wrong or even dangerous. Winch
launch must be approached with knowledge and dicipline at both the
individual and organizational level.

Suggestions made here that US operations adopt the BGA winch launch manuals
is something I strongly support. I would suggest equal emphasis on the
German DAeC winch manuals which are available in English. The German
manuals tend to be more engineering orientated and less traditional than the
British. Keep in mind all these manuals assume the reader has a significant
knowledge of winch launch. Here usenet discussions can be very helpful.

Access to "winch friendly" airfields will be a problem for a long time.
Many have said this is the toughest nut to crack and they may be right. The
only "right time" to start solving this problem is now. I think every club
should have a standing committee tasked with "winch site search".

Bill Daniels