flaps again

In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.

I had to.

I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?
Not flapless.
I had to.
I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have
to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to.

X. AREA OF OPERATION: EMERGENCY OPERATIONS
SNIP
2. Analyzes the situation and takes appropriate action for simulated
emergencies appropriate to the airplane provided for the practical
test for at least three (3) of the following—
a. partial or complete power loss.
b. engine roughness or overheat.
c. carburetor or induction icing.
d. loss of oil pressure.
e. fuel starvation.
f. electrical malfunction.
g. vacuum/pressure, and associated flight instruments malfunction.
h. pitot/static.
i. landing gear or flap malfunction.
j. inoperative trim.
k. inadvertent door or window opening.
l. structural icing.
m. smoke/fire/engine compartment fire.
n. any other emergency appropriate to the airplane.
3. Follows the appropriate checklist or procedure.

In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?
Not flapless.
I had to.
I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have
to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to.

Right, but part of the expectation of the test is to follow it through as
far as you can safely do so. When he pulls the power on you, you're not
expected to *actually* land in some guy's field, but at the same time you
don't smack his hand away from the throttle and keep going. I would expect
that a simulated landing gear failure would consist of going through
whatever checks are appropriate for that situation and making sure you
handle that end of things in a reasonable manner. Since stuck flaps can be
taken all the way to completion safely, there's no reason to stop early.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

In rec.aviation.student Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

Ooh, you're mean.

Seriously though, it seems to me that this is a better approach than
simply announcing the failure. It's much more realistic and teaches the
student to be adaptable when something doesn't work the way it should,
instead of just changing the tune to follow the instructor.

The big emergency us glider types just love to practice is low-altitude
tow rope breaks. Instructors have you practice those by pulling the
release knob on you with no advance warning. Makes a loud bang with the
treetops awfully close. First time scared and surprised me so much I
literally froze on the controls and probably would have died if I had been
alone. Second time was a piece of cake. If you don't surprise your
students in training then their first surprise is going to be a *real*
emergency, and that's no good, so I'm all for your style of doing things.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

In rec.aviation.student Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

Ooh, you're mean.

Seriously though, it seems to me that this is a better approach than
simply announcing the failure. It's much more realistic and teaches the
student to be adaptable when something doesn't work the way it should,
instead of just changing the tune to follow the instructor.

Exactly. It also teaches you to fly the damn airplane and not get
distracted by little ****. Just about to turn base is no time to be going
heads down in the cockpit or getting distracted.

Declare you're landing without flaps? Fine. Declare you're exiting the
pattern until you can sort this out? Fine. Give me a sharp poke in the
ribs to get me to move my foot? Well, it's not the response I was hoping
for, but it's not the worst you could do :-) Getting into an argument with
me at the expense of your traffic scan? Not fine.

The hardest part of dealing with any equipment failure is recognizing that
it's happened.

Roy Smith wrote:
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

That's what the proverbial D-cell flash light is for (preferably a
mag-lite).

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

He announced the flap failure while asking for the ground control
frequency on 2 mile final to New Haven.

I told him I was too busy to pull out the AF/D, and would look up the
correct frequency after landing. This was the correct answer.

At 50 ft. AGL on the no flap emergency landing, he told me to go
around, as the runway had debris on it. The go-around went well.
During the approach, I had to describe the differences in between a
no-flap landing and a normal landing. (hint: Green and White arcs,
higher turning stall speeds) I also had to answer questions on if I
would land on specific local runways with a flap failure, and why my
landing roll would be longer.

In rec.aviation.student B A R R Y wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

He announced the flap failure while asking for the ground control
frequency on 2 mile final to New Haven.

I told him I was too busy to pull out the AF/D, and would look up the
correct frequency after landing. This was the correct answer.

Cool, good to know I'm not totally off base. Those examiners are tricky
devils. Thanks for the story.

The rough equivalent in gliders is a no-spoiler landing, except that in
any decently-performing glider, trying to land without spoilers is like
trying to sink a body in the East River without concrete shoes: it just
won't go down. My examiner had me fly a pattern using slip instead of
spoilers until a point on short final where there was just no other way to
make a decent landing, at which point he let me open them and land.

I have done one landing with no spoilers (except when flaring, since I
didn't want to float forever) in an older glider, and even there it was
quite a challenge and took me two tries to get it right. I'm pretty sure
that if it happened for real I could survive the experience but it
wouldn't be pretty and might end up being expensive.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!