flaps again

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!


Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!
Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Well, no, because there are no flaps on them. May be a bit extreme, but that is the way we used to teach it. If it's got
flaps, then use them for all 'normal' landings...

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:41:58 -0500, "Barry" wrote:

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.

That's all great... Now, where is the no flap landing listed in the
Private Pilot PTS? G

Most of us agree it's far from an emergency, but the PTS doesn't list
"Urgency" or "Abnormal" conditions.

The examiner did not scream "Emergency!", blow horns, cry, etc...

He just said "Why don't you make this one a no-flap landing... Tell
me what's different if you need to land without flaps." After the
oral exam on flaps, we didn't even land, as he then pointed out
non-existent debris on the runway. Right before the flap failure, he
had me slip to lose altitude.

As we climbed away from the runway, he checked the "Flap Failure" off
in the "Emergency Procedures" list in the PTS. That's why it's an
"Emergency" in this context.

We went over all of the "Emergencies" listed in the PTS that were
applicable to the airplane I was flying.

Even though most of us think it's not a big deal, if the PIC of a
specific aircraft feels his of her specific flap failure has every
right to declare, no?

FWIW, The guy I know who had the right flap break off his Beech Sport
declared to the tower at the field he was landing! Why? He didn't
really know what the damage was. All he knew is that when he deployed
the flaps @ 1000 AGL, there was a big bang and the plane flew funny.
While it flew fine once he pulled them back in, he really didn't know
the extent of the damage to the plane.

Barry wrote:
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.


I would call it no more than an annoyance unless I have to stuff the airplane
into a really short strip. Emergency? That examiner has to be kidding.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Blueskies wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ...
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.


Exactly!
Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Well, no, because there are no flaps on them. May be a bit extreme, but that is the way we used to teach it. If it's got
flaps, then use them for all 'normal' landings...



Absolutely. If you got um use um by all means. It's all in the manner of
approach to the issue (no pun intended :-).
The point I'm making is simply that a no flap landing doesn't HAVE to be
only an emergency procedure. It can also be treated as a normal landing
done at a pilot's discretion in conditions where a no flap landing might
be expeditious.
We used them all the time at a field we used that had a nice long runway
with a turn off at the end that was optimum to use to visit the local
coffee shop. Not only was is expeditious to land with no flaps, but it
was the perfect opportunity to practice a no flap landing.
Some instructors like the black and white approach to flight
instruction. I have never been a huge fan of this approach to teaching
flying. If I have a student learning in a 150 Cessna, naturally I want
that student to be using flaps as a normal way to land that airplane.
On the other hand, I don't want to teach that student to fly a Cessna
150. I want to teach that student to fly an AIRPLANE.
This means that if that student gets his certificate, then goes over to
airport B and wants to rent a Decathlon, I don't want him going over
there thinking that landing an airplane with no flaps is strictly an
emergency situation. I want him thinking simply that the Decathlon lands
with no flaps and that's no big deal, as he's already learned that this
is normal behavior and has as well been thoroughly acclimated as to what
to expect in different behavior from such an airplane.
It's no big deal really, and is all in how an instructor deals with
these issues.
Nothing I've described here takes away from the fact that if a pilot
flying an airplane equipped with flaps can't lower them for some reason,
that this situation isn't handled as an unusual landing for THAT
airplane and as such can be classified as an "emergency procedure" for
THAT airplane.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.

The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.

The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a
big hurry :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a
big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap
was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he
had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and
then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in
flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the
flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques wrote:
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

No more than every landing made in a glider is an emergency.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software