flaps again

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.

On Tue, 1 Jan 2008 17:41:58 -0500, "Barry" wrote:

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.

That's all great... Now, where is the no flap landing listed in the
Private Pilot PTS? G

Most of us agree it's far from an emergency, but the PTS doesn't list
"Urgency" or "Abnormal" conditions.

The examiner did not scream "Emergency!", blow horns, cry, etc...

He just said "Why don't you make this one a no-flap landing... Tell
me what's different if you need to land without flaps." After the
oral exam on flaps, we didn't even land, as he then pointed out
non-existent debris on the runway. Right before the flap failure, he
had me slip to lose altitude.

As we climbed away from the runway, he checked the "Flap Failure" off
in the "Emergency Procedures" list in the PTS. That's why it's an
"Emergency" in this context.

We went over all of the "Emergencies" listed in the PTS that were
applicable to the airplane I was flying.

Even though most of us think it's not a big deal, if the PIC of a
specific aircraft feels his of her specific flap failure has every
right to declare, no?

FWIW, The guy I know who had the right flap break off his Beech Sport
declared to the tower at the field he was landing! Why? He didn't
really know what the damage was. All he knew is that when he deployed
the flaps @ 1000 AGL, there was a big bang and the plane flew funny.
While it flew fine once he pulled them back in, he really didn't know
the extent of the damage to the plane.

Barry wrote:
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.


I would call it no more than an annoyance unless I have to stuff the airplane
into a really short strip. Emergency? That examiner has to be kidding.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

On 2008-01-01 18:26:04 -0800, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com said:

Barry wrote:
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes you to
be concerned about safety.


I would call it no more than an annoyance unless I have to stuff the airplane
into a really short strip. Emergency? That examiner has to be kidding.

He calls it an emergency because that is where a flap failure is in the
PTS. It is in the "Emergency Procedures" section. I doubt very much
that the examiner thinks it is really an emergency.

OTOH, people do manage to turn non-emergencies into emergencies. Every
now and then you hear of someone who smashes up a perfectly flyable
airplane simply because they managed to spear a June bug with the pitot
tube, or a door popped open in flight, or something minor like that.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

In rec.aviation.student C J Campbell wrote:
OTOH, people do manage to turn non-emergencies into emergencies. Every
now and then you hear of someone who smashes up a perfectly flyable
airplane simply because they managed to spear a June bug with the pitot
tube, or a door popped open in flight, or something minor like that.

I recall an unfortunate incident in which a poorly-placed water bag had
somewhat reduced my right aileron authority, and I thought I could get it
out of the way in the middle of the takeoff. The aircraft quickly
disabused me of this notion, and I recovered without breaking anything,
but it made for an embarrassing show. (Why is it that you can be
absolutely certain that someone is watching when you screw it up, and
absolutely certain that nobody was around to see it when you make a
greaser landing?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

"Michael Ash" wrote in message
...

I recall an unfortunate incident in which a poorly-placed water bag had
somewhat reduced my right aileron authority, and I thought I could get it
out of the way in the middle of the takeoff. The aircraft quickly
disabused me of this notion, and I recovered without breaking anything,
but it made for an embarrassing show. (Why is it that you can be
absolutely certain that someone is watching when you screw it up, and
absolutely certain that nobody was around to see it when you make a
greaser landing?


It usually has nothing to do with what the actually see, and everything to
do with what they choose to recall.

In rec.aviation.student Maxwell wrote:
"Michael Ash" wrote in message
...

I recall an unfortunate incident in which a poorly-placed water bag had
somewhat reduced my right aileron authority, and I thought I could get it
out of the way in the middle of the takeoff. The aircraft quickly
disabused me of this notion, and I recovered without breaking anything,
but it made for an embarrassing show. (Why is it that you can be
absolutely certain that someone is watching when you screw it up, and
absolutely certain that nobody was around to see it when you make a
greaser landing?

It usually has nothing to do with what the actually see, and everything to
do with what they choose to recall.

No doubt.

There's an amusing ending to this as well. I had thought nobody noticed
it, since nobody said anything, until I got in the car with my friend to
go home. We started talking about our respective days at the airport and
he said, "Did you see that one guy on takeoff...?" I had to shamefacedly
admit that "that one guy" was actually me.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

"Michael Ash" wrote

I recall an unfortunate incident in which a poorly-placed water bag had
somewhat reduced my right aileron authority, and I thought I could get
it
out of the way in the middle of the takeoff. The aircraft quickly
disabused me of this notion, and I recovered without breaking anything,
but it made for an embarrassing show. (Why is it that you can be
absolutely certain that someone is watching when you screw it up, and
absolutely certain that nobody was around to see it when you make a
greaser landing?

I'm not up on glider operations, so maybe you can clue me in.

What is a water bag? Ballasting? Why would it have been laid on the
ailerons? How or why could it be forgotten? How big is it?

Thanks for taking the time to fill in a "motor head!" g
--
Jim in NC

The Cessna A185F POH has this in the LIMITATIONS section:

FLAP LIMITATIONS

Approved Takeoff Range: 0 deg to 20 deg.
Approved Landing Range: 0 deg to 40 deg

So at least in a Cessna 185, a zero flap landing is never an emergency. In
fact, it is SOP for some conditions.

CJ, I'm not disagreeing with anything you posted. Just posting this for
general information. The Cessna 185 has the exact same wing as a 182. In
fact, my wings have attach brackets for a flap motor, although the 185 has
manual flaps.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news:200801030718278930-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
On 2008-01-01 18:26:04 -0800, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com said:

Barry wrote:
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:

EMERGENCY- A distress or an urgency condition.

DISTRESS- A condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent
danger
and of requiring immediate assistance.

URGENCY- A condition of being concerned about safety and of requiring
timely
but not immediate assistance; a potential distress condition.

So I would say that the inability to extend flaps would be considered an
emergency only if it puts you in serious or imminent danger, or causes
you to
be concerned about safety.


I would call it no more than an annoyance unless I have to stuff the
airplane
into a really short strip. Emergency? That examiner has to be kidding.

He calls it an emergency because that is where a flap failure is in the
PTS. It is in the "Emergency Procedures" section. I doubt very much that
the examiner thinks it is really an emergency.

OTOH, people do manage to turn non-emergencies into emergencies. Every now
and then you hear of someone who smashes up a perfectly flyable airplane
simply because they managed to spear a June bug with the pitot tube, or a
door popped open in flight, or something minor like that.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2008-01-03 21:03:04 -0800, "karl mcgruber" skywagon
said:


CJ, I'm not disagreeing with anything you posted. Just posting this for
general information. The Cessna 185 has the exact same wing as a 182.
In fact, my wings have attach brackets for a flap motor, although the
185 has manual flaps.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

I didn't know that! Should have guessed, though.

For those who have not seen it, Karl's plane is a beautiful thing.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor